ChessPub Forum - C15-C19: What is black's idea in the winawer?

Bocajaka Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 122 Joined: 07/15/08	Re: What is black's idea in the winawer? Reply #10 - 08/26/08 at 17:02:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 08/25/08 at 13:49:53: Bocajaka wrote on 08/25/08 at 08:42:28: That's a good example, I definetely see you point. Believe my when I say that I don't regard myself as better than Kasparov but I think he played kind of strange in this game and black had all the time in the world to play on the queenside. For example what was the point with 9.Bb5+ and 10.Ba4 allowing black to push his pawns like that? But ofcourse it's easy for me to point out mistakes but much harde to suggest something. Let's say 6.f4 instead and I think black is absolutely fine since he can play ...Ba6 and the knight is probably better placed on g8 where it can go to h6 than on d7 like in the classical variation of the french. He must do something so 15.Nh2 and f4-f5 seems like the only plan even though it looks artificial. 15.Re1 as was played looks strange when black is bulldozing on the queenside. Nice to see that you start answering your own questions. The point of 9.Bb5+ (it is quite a normal idea in lines like these) is to make it more difficult for Black to activate his Queen's Bishop. Whether the price White has to pay is too high is another question. Thank you, I try to do my best Since this way of playing with 4.a3 Bf8 doesn't seem very common it leads me to assume that white has a good plan against it. What is it?


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: What is black's idea in the winawer? Reply #9 - 08/25/08 at 13:49:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bocajaka wrote on 08/25/08 at 08:42:28: That's a good example, I definetely see you point. Believe my when I say that I don't regard myself as better than Kasparov but I think he played kind of strange in this game and black had all the time in the world to play on the queenside. For example what was the point with 9.Bb5+ and 10.Ba4 allowing black to push his pawns like that? But ofcourse it's easy for me to point out mistakes but much harde to suggest something. Let's say 6.f4 instead and I think black is absolutely fine since he can play ...Ba6 and the knight is probably better placed on g8 where it can go to h6 than on d7 like in the classical variation of the french. He must do something so 15.Nh2 and f4-f5 seems like the only plan even though it looks artificial. 15.Re1 as was played looks strange when black is bulldozing on the queenside. Nice to see that you start answering your own questions. The point of 9.Bb5+ (it is quite a normal idea in lines like these) is to make it more difficult for Black to activate his Queen's Bishop. Whether the price White has to pay is too high is another question.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Bocajaka Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 122 Joined: 07/15/08	Re: What is black's idea in the winawer? Reply #8 - 08/25/08 at 08:42:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 08/24/08 at 22:11:26: Bocajaka wrote on 08/24/08 at 12:46:10: I have recently started playing 1.e4 and 3.Nc3 against the french. Having played just one game in the Winawer I feel like white gets a certain initiative for very little. If I was a french dude I would probably play 3...Nf6 instead. So tell me, what makes the Winawer so attractive to you compared to the other lines? The Winawer can lead to the most sharp variations around, but backed by a long term pawn structure advantage. I mean how often can you sack away the g and h-pawn in the opening with the idea to win in the endgame. Plus you may get to beat Kasparov in ultra-showoff fashion, take special notice of the position after move 5. Would you dare that against Kasparov? [Date "1995.10.??"] [White "Kasparov,Garry"] [Black "Ivanchuk,Vassily"] [Result "0-1"] 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 b6 5.a3 Bf8 6.Nf3 Ne7 7.h4 h6 8.h5 a5 9.Bb5+ c6 10.Ba4 Nd7 11.Ne2 b5 12.Bb3 c5 13.c3 Nc6 14.0-0 Qc7 15.Re1 c4 16.Bc2 Nb6 17.Bf4 Be7 18.Bg3 Rb8 19.Nh2 Qd8 20.Ng4 b4 21.axb4 axb4 22.cxb4 Nxb4 23.Bb1 Bd7 24.b3 Ra8 25.Rxa8 Qxa8 26.bxc4 Nxc4 27.Nc1 Ba4 28.Qe2 Qa7 29.Ne3 Qxd4 30.Nxc4 dxc4 31.Qf1 0-0 0-1 That's a good example, I definetely see you point. Believe my when I say that I don't regard myself as better than Kasparov but I think he played kind of strange in this game and black had all the time in the world to play on the queenside. For example what was the point with 9.Bb5+ and 10.Ba4 allowing black to push his pawns like that? But ofcourse it's easy for me to point out mistakes but much harde to suggest something. Let's say 6.f4 instead and I think black is absolutely fine since he can play ...Ba6 and the knight is probably better placed on g8 where it can go to h6 than on d7 like in the classical variation of the french. He must do something so 15.Nh2 and f4-f5 seems like the only plan even though it looks artificial. 15.Re1 as was played looks strange when black is bulldozing on the queenside.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: What is black's idea in the winawer? Reply #7 - 08/24/08 at 22:11:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bocajaka wrote on 08/24/08 at 12:46:10: I have recently started playing 1.e4 and 3.Nc3 against the french. Having played just one game in the Winawer I feel like white gets a certain initiative for very little. If I was a french dude I would probably play 3...Nf6 instead. So tell me, what makes the Winawer so attractive to you compared to the other lines? The Winawer can lead to the most sharp variations around, but backed by a long term pawn structure advantage. I mean how often can you sack away the g and h-pawn in the opening with the idea to win in the endgame. Plus you may get to beat Kasparov in ultra-showoff fashion, take special notice of the position after move 5. Would you dare that against Kasparov? [Date "1995.10.??"] [White "Kasparov,Garry"] [Black "Ivanchuk,Vassily"] [Result "0-1"] 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 b6 5.a3 Bf8 6.Nf3 Ne7 7.h4 h6 8.h5 a5 9.Bb5+ c6 10.Ba4 Nd7 11.Ne2 b5 12.Bb3 c5 13.c3 Nc6 14.0-0 Qc7 15.Re1 c4 16.Bc2 Nb6 17.Bf4 Be7 18.Bg3 Rb8 19.Nh2 Qd8 20.Ng4 b4 21.axb4 axb4 22.cxb4 Nxb4 23.Bb1 Bd7 24.b3 Ra8 25.Rxa8 Qxa8 26.bxc4 Nxc4 27.Nc1 Ba4 28.Qe2 Qa7 29.Ne3 Qxd4 30.Nxc4 dxc4 31.Qf1 0-0 0-1

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: What is black's idea in the winawer? Reply #6 - 08/24/08 at 20:33:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	You indeed should consider buying Starting Out the French or something. After 6...Qc7 7.Qg4 Black has the choice between f5 (+= since my rather dated knowledge) and Nge7, sacrificing the whole king's wing. This is often called the French Poisoned Pawn and with good reason.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Bocajaka Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 122 Joined: 07/15/08	Re: What is black's idea in the winawer? Reply #5 - 08/24/08 at 19:44:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	kylemeister wrote on 08/24/08 at 19:13:18: 6...Qc7 is an old main line of the Winawer, though slightly eclipsed in the last few decades. It's kind of like saying, "maybe someone would like to explain the Dragon." ...Bd7 and ...Ba4 is a standard idea (and a4 is a standard idea for White, in part directed against it). I must say, you remind me very much of another poster, who claimed to be a 2000+ player but was always posting things approximately like "What are the ideas behind the Classical Scheveningen and the 6. Be2 Najdorf?". I know that these questions are elementary but I still don't know the answer to them so I ask. Most of the times I get obvious replies but sometimes someone knows something or can refer me somewhere. For whatever it's worth (on the internet) I can tell you that my rating is above 2000 aswell


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: What is black's idea in the winawer? Reply #4 - 08/24/08 at 19:13:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	6...Qc7 is an old main line of the Winawer, though slightly eclipsed in the last few decades. It's kind of like saying, "maybe someone would like to explain the Dragon." ...Bd7 and ...Ba4 is a standard idea (and a4 is a standard idea for White, in part directed against it). I must say, you remind me very much of another poster, who claimed to be a 2000+ player but was always posting things approximately like "What are the ideas behind the Classical Scheveningen and the 6. Be2 Najdorf?".


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Bocajaka

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Re: What is black's idea in the winawer?
Reply #3 - 08/24/08 at 18:05:25

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MNb wrote on 08/24/08 at 13:30:24:

Not losing a tempo after x.e4-e5, threatening 4...dxe4 in more favourable circumstances and prospects of play against doubled c-pawns. Finally Black might get a lead in development in the main line 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3.
Fischer asked the same question in his 64 Memorable Games and admitted his chagrin when not being able to prove an advantage.

dom wrote on 08/24/08 at 13:55:41:

Short answer: pawn structure and ending advantage.

I like the following variation for black

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7

And here white can play 7.Nf3 or 7.Qg4 perhaps someone who knows something about this would like to explain the ideas with these.

In particular after 7.Nf3 I like 7...Bd7 and go cxd4 and Ba4.

Even I would consider playing this as black

It looks pretty reasonable, but I don't know what happens after 7.Qg4 yet so I can't say a lot about that.

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dom God Member Offline Posts: 908 Location: Toulouse Joined: 01/11/03 Gender:	Re: What is black's idea in the winawer? Reply #2 - 08/24/08 at 13:55:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Short answer: pawn structure and ending advantage.

	“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.” - Groucho Marx
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: What is black's idea in the winawer? Reply #1 - 08/24/08 at 13:30:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Not losing a tempo after x.e4-e5, threatening 4...dxe4 in more favourable circumstances and prospects of play against doubled c-pawns. Finally Black might get a lead in development in the main line 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3. Fischer asked the same question in his 64 Memorable Games and admitted his chagrin when not being able to prove an advantage.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Bocajaka Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 122 Joined: 07/15/08	C15-C19: What is black's idea in the winawer? 08/24/08 at 12:46:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have recently started playing 1.e4 and 3.Nc3 against the french. Having played just one game in the Winawer I feel like white gets a certain initiative for very little. If I was a french dude I would probably play 3...Nf6 instead. So tell me, what makes the Winawer so attractive to you compared to the other lines?
	« Last Edit: 07/27/11 at 18:42:09 by dom »

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