Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) U.S. Credit Bailout (Read 32887 times)
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: U.S. Credit Bailout
Reply #7 - 09/28/08 at 03:45:03
Post Tools
I have been dismayed by the responses to Markovich's interesting first post. Instead of discussing the issue at hand, it seems that people here are more interested in reifying their own beliefs than in trying to figure out what's happening and how to fix it.

Markovich has rightly pointed out that doing something in haste is often a mistake. However, I get the distinct impression that this financial mess was foreseen by enough people that possible solutions have been passed around within the government for some time now. 

McCain was accused by Republicans and Democrats alike for suggesting a "middle ground" approach to the bail-out that had already been examined and rejected.  This means to me that at least some of our representatives and the government has been working on the problem for quite some time.

Markovich asks, somewhat rhetorically, whether the consequences of letting some institutions going bankrupt is really such a bad thing.  The problem as I see it is that the danger isn't that "some" institutions will fail, but that many are failing.   

I agree completely that there is a real danger of major corporate leaders getting the wrong message; that if they make a mistake the government will save them.  Still, I do agree with Bush on one key element:  there is only one party with enough resources even to consider helping the financial market:  the US government.   

Fox News (one of my least favorite sources), sadly proclaimed "we are all Socialists now."  Rather than put some emotionally charged name on what we do, we should look to the short and long term effects of any bail-out.  My instinct, based more on the workings of the government than the economy, is that there will be some sort of major economic reform package that will hold the CEOs and other corporate leaders responsible for the failures of their companies and in return the companies will be able to receive massive infusions from the Treasury and Fed.   

This will probably have the short-term effect of weakening the dollar even further, but that should only be a short-term effect.  This is a global issue, and the sooner the US acts, the sooner it will recover.  I am heartened to see that after 8 years in Washington, Bush has finally learned to listen to his aides and even some congressmen.  If this is true, then I do believe a workable bail-out (which is almost certainly necessary) will be the result.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: U.S. Credit Bailout
Reply #6 - 09/27/08 at 21:45:27
Post Tools
Part of MNb's post puts me in mind of a recent book ("The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder") by a famous former prosecutor, Vincent Bugliosi* (he won 21 out of 21 murder trials, or something like that).  He observes that, since Mondale in 1984, it seems to be verboten for a major presidential candidate to say anything about the poor.  (They speak fairly often of "the middle class," but it seems that often their definition of that includes people/households up to about the 97th percentile.)  That might be considered surprising in a country in which a little over 15% of the population is under the poverty line, after transfers.  As far as I know, that's the highest percentage of any major industrialized country (and much higher than most).  It's also about the same as the percentage with no health insurance (with another 15% or so being "underinsured," according to one estimate I recall).  A US government entity estimates that the number of excess deaths per year attributable to the lack of universal health insurance is in the tens of thousands, but that seems to be almost never mentioned.  Another factor is that the percentage of US businesses which offer health insurance to their employees has been falling for years, and is now at, I believe, 59%.


*Incidentally, when Bugliosi's book came out, he was virtually banned from appearing on TV to talk about it, while a few months earlier, some guy (who certainly doesn't have the kind of notable background Bugliosi does) with a book originally titled something like "Liberal Fascism:  From Mussolini to Hillary Clinton" appeared all over the place.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10778
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: U.S. Credit Bailout
Reply #5 - 09/27/08 at 20:38:02
Post Tools
drkodos wrote on 09/27/08 at 17:55:42:
Why do so many people leave socialist countries to come to free market countries and yet so few leave western capitalist societies to move to socialist countries?


Because those socialist countries you seem to think of are/were not socialist at all. Eg the Soviet-Union in fact was ruled by an elite of rich and self-enriching partymembers, who could not be distinguished at all from the owners of the means of productions so typical for the 19th raw capitalist societies of England and the USA. No wonder they smoothly passed into the raw capitalism so typical of contemporary Russia.
At the other hand those countries were the heirs of the socialist sphere of thought obtained political power, such as Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands, haven't produced such political and/or economic refugees at all since about 1955.
The facts that in New York every winter sees many people dying from frost, that San Francisco counts numerous beggars and that a huge percentage of the American population has no access to public health services has a direct relation with the fact that the USA has been ruled by a right-wing capitalist elite since decades. You see, enlightened politicians like the Clintons, Gore and Obama are considered right-wing in Europe.
I even dare to say that socialism in The Netherlands has been so successfull - there is hardly a Dutch proletariat anymore, while all my four grandparents belonged to it - that the Dutch socialist parties have problems with their raison-d'etre.
For an indeep philisopical answer on this subject - why the Soviet-Union failed and the socialist parties of Western and Northern Europe did not - I have to digress on the history of the socialist movement. Important names are Michail Bakunin (not for his own political ideas, but for his criticism, which lead to his expulsion at Den Haag 1872), Eduard Bernstein and Karl Kautsky.

Can a devout capitalist see the difference between the two mainstreams of socialism? Just curious; your question suggests the answer being no.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
God Member
*****
Offline


I see....stars.

Posts: 778
Location: Jupiter, and beyond
Joined: 03/29/07
Re: U.S. Credit Bailout
Reply #4 - 09/27/08 at 17:55:42
Post Tools
Why do so many people leave socialist countries to come to free market countries and yet so few leave western capitalist societies to move to socialist countries?


I've always wondered how socialists fit this apparent anamoly (if socialism works, this migration is the exact opposite of what would happen) into their world view.

Just curious.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10778
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: U.S. Credit Bailout
Reply #3 - 09/26/08 at 21:58:30
Post Tools
Being not an economist at all I take comfort from the fact that professional economists never seem to agree.

Markovich wrote on 09/26/08 at 15:00:43:
 Indeed any bailout would have a very strong whiff of welfare for the rich.  And this will somehow make them more responsible?


Being a devout socialist I also think the bail out is bad news. Indeed it's my impression that Bush' measures exactly aim to protect the interests of the very upper class in the USA. It also shows for the zillionth time that those who call themselves conservative (philosophically speaking they aren't) in fact are hypocrite. As long as the free market allows them to enrich themselves they follow the mantra of less government. As soon as their interests are in danger they propagandize and practize government intervention, preferably at cost of the ordinary people. Reagan was exactly the same and I also can give a few Dutch names, if anyone interested.

Fortunately I think the consequences for the international economy will not be too serious. Since a couple of years the US-dollar is on the decline; that's obvious here in Suriname, where the US-dollar has lost much of its popularity in favour of the Euro. No way this tendency will reverse the next few years. At the other hand I think the other of the two most important economies in the world, of Europe, is strong enough to survive the crisis. This is of course the main difference with 1929, the nightmares that pops up again every few years. Also keep in mind that the economic ties between Europe and the USA are almost neglectable compared to the internal trade of the European continent.
I really cannot judge how much the American economy will be damaged. But I highly doubt it will affect the rest of the world that much.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
God Member
*****
Offline


I see....stars.

Posts: 778
Location: Jupiter, and beyond
Joined: 03/29/07
Re: U.S. Credit Bailout
Reply #2 - 09/26/08 at 20:51:54
Post Tools
I have a degree in economics, but am not a professional economist....  Far from it actually...I am a media hack.


I am not sure I would call this bailout plan any form of "capitalism" that I am familiar with. 

As a devout capitalist, I think the bailout is bad news.  Government policies and irresponsiveness created the "crisis"  so I am not too confident these same people are the ones to be solving this "crisis."

Meltzer is seminal, and I thinks he's on the mark here, as usual.

Authority and the state are always the benefactors of these types of fabricated "crisis." 

Financial blood in the streets (metaphorically, of course, not real hemoglobin) is what is needed.  In the form of people losing homes they never really owned anyway, several banking and financial institutions going under, and a general correction of the over-bubbled real-estate market.  

Life will go on for most people tomorrow just as it did yesterday.

My suggested "fix":
 
Step One:  Zero Capital Gains taxes.
Step Two:  3 Month rolling Market index.
Step Three:  Do nothing else.


I am reminded of Salvor Hardin in The Foundation who said something along these lines: 

"The secret to this crisis is nothing!   And that is exactly what I plan to do to solve this Seldon Crisis, absolutely nothing!"



Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.



  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1757
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: U.S. Credit Bailout
Reply #1 - 09/26/08 at 16:55:40
Post Tools
I am not an economist. But the way I understand it, the most compelling reason for the necessity of this so called bailout is the that capital is drying. As I understand it, the US financial institutions are desperately short of capital. Because of a lack, a capital, not only is their survival at stake, but many are unable to lend money. Credit is therefore slowly drying up, which in turn will affect every other business sector who need to borrow money for whatever reason.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
U.S. Credit Bailout
09/26/08 at 15:00:43
Post Tools
My sister sent me an email asking what I, an economist by profession, thought about this issue.  Here was my answer.

Frankly, it's all so complicated, that I am not sure.  However, my fundamental perspective is that almost anything done in haste, especially under a supposedly dire threat, is likely to be a mistake.  I am very concerned that this particular mistake will permanently commit vast federal funds that are badly needed to solve other problems.  I am no expert on the financial system, but I am at a loss to understand why financial markets, which are among the world's most efficient and best-functioning markets, can't be trusted to sort out the consequences of the general tumble of housing prices.  Prominent among those consequences is the increased risk of holding mortgage notes, and the consequent fall in value of this paper.  Of course, many mortgages have been aggregated and spun into complex derivatives whose value is so difficult to figure out that the market for them has collapsed.  But that is a problem for the people and institutions who own this paper, and no one else.   
 
Also from a policy perspective, there is absolutely no reason to be concerned by the general decline in equity (stock) prices: much of that is mere panic, and at bottom, there is still a relatively robust real economy of farms and factories backing up most equities.  Actually, I think that now is a great time to put money into equity, and that is exactly what Betty and I are doing.  The main victims of the fall in stock prices are people who are getting ready to retire and have a lot of their assets in equity.  Well, life is tough; everyone always knew that equity was a gamble.  The taxpayers don't owe anyone a favor just because they have too much of their retirement in equity, or just because they took on a mortgage debt that they find themselves unable to support. 
 
This problem may cause some institutions to go bankrupt (they can't get credit because too much of their balance sheet is in doubtful paper).  But it isn't obvious to me why the collapse of some investment banks and insurance companies should have any longterm impact on the economy.  These institutions own not only questionable paper, but plenty of truly valuable assets that potential rescuers would be willing to purchase at fair value.  It makes little difference to the economy if an asset winds up being owned by one house or another.  In fact even the most doubtful mortgage derivatives still have very considerable value, just much less than their owners wish they had. 
 
A very bad consequence of a bailout is that it would create a supposition that it's possible for a sufficiently large and "important" institution to take on great risk, and count on federal support in case the roll of the dice turns out badly.  That will actually increase our longterm difficulties, not reduce them.  The financial system functions most effectively when the risks and rewards of any given decision rest exclusively with the decision-makers.  Indeed any bailout would have a very strong whiff of welfare for the rich.  And this will somehow make them more responsible? 
 
Lurking behind all of this is the falling value of the dollar, caused mainly by years of rampant deficit spending (and the increasingly prevalent supposition among foreigners that we will ultimately have to print money to pay off our debts). The main problem is that this drives up the price of imports which are critically necessary to our substantially globalized economy.(not to mention the price of French wine!)  A $700 billion increment in the deficit will absolutely do nothing to help. 
 
The pro and con cases are fairly well represented at this link.  You will see that my views are essentially the same as those of Allan Meltzer, a very prominent expert on monetary policy.  I don't share what I assume to be his political perspective (he is a scholar in residence at the American Enterprise Institute), but I agree with him on this.
 
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec08/aigbailout_09-17.html
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo