ANDREW BRETT wrote on 11/05/08 at 12:44:01:


I meant Khalifan's recommendation in OAK - Openings According to Kramnik. Since it sees the modern from the 1.Nf3 move-order.

What is the state of theory given in those books on the Pirc? I don't have them.

ANDREW BRETT wrote on 11/05/08 at 10:12:36:


1. Nf3 g6 2. e4 Bg7 3. d4 d6 4. c3

1. Nf3 g6 2. e4 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3

White would also have to be prepared for a Classical Pirc, if black decided to go that route. Admittedly I'm not up to date on where the Classical Pirc stands theory-wise.

What does Khalifman recommend in OAK?

farg wrote on 10/07/08 at 08:13:04:


1. c4 g6 2. Nc3 Bg7 3. d4 is worth mentioning as well, because it will go straight into a KID at that point.

By the way, 1...g6 seems an interesting defense to 1.Nf3.

1. Nf3 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. e4 e6 4. d4 Bg4

or

3. d4 Nf6 with a Grunfeld (something black wouldn't get in other move orders)

White's best may be to play 2.e4 going into the Modern Defense, but white doesn't have the f4 systems, and he is out of his normal playing style.

Thanks MNb! I like the idea of playing 1...g6 (since white can't transpose to the Pirc) and keeping option with f5, Ne7 or something similar open.

I would say that it is pretty rare for Black players to have this sophisticated a repertoire.

Incidentally, I think Tony Kosten has won a few games recently in the symmetrical Botvinnink for white. I am not sure that it's that easy to play for black.

I'm one of these lazy guys, definitely.  I read some of Tony Kosten's Dynamic English and once i got rolling with the Botvinnik I gave up worrying about theory.  I get my share of defeats but I also get to autopilot far more than I really should be allowed to into a familiar middlegame.  I play mainly blitz online so this system is ideal and I have some nice (though often fortunate/time-influenced) wins against opposition way higher than me.  I was lucky enough to beat an FM a couple days ago, mainly on time, using this system.  I blitz at 1600-1750 most of the time - 99 times out of 100 he would have crushed me, obviously, but its indicative of the advantages this system conveys upon us 'lazy-bums'  

So, in order to defeat it I would only be able to tell you what I dislike facing, which is either the Slav setup i.e. 1c4 c6 or the Symmetrical. Everything else is grist to the mill for a lazy system player.  

Against the Slav I usually go for Nf3 and some reckless g-pawn pushing a la Gurevich, whilst against the Symmetrical I just persevere with my version of the Botvinnik but I often falter - the Symmetrical gives me my worst score as White.


When playing against a fellow 1c4 player who I know doesn't play d4 early or at all I go for a Botvinnik with Black.  If I think that d4 is coming I use the Dutch instead.  

I'm glad I don't play 'real' time controls at a club with this kind of repertoire approach as I'm certain I'd get found out very quickly, but online it keeps me happy.

beat them with their own weapon...go for c5 and a botvinnik-type setup (palliser,beating unsual chess openings). easy to play stuff and as most english players will use the botvinnik themselves against the kings indian they will feel very uncomfortable

Edit: i should better read other posts so just follow MnBs lines... the g6 move order is pretty nice... when i tried to make some good white repertoire with 1. c4 this move is really annoying (to many transpositions)

Meat wrote on 10/05/08 at 14:23:49:


White is White as Markovich always says so you can't really expect a concrete opening advantage as Black after such a good move as 1.c4. The first goal must be to imbalance the game and the key to this is getting an asymmetrical pawn structure. A second point is flexible piece development.
The most aggressive and still positionally sound setup that fits nicely with the KID imo is a well-known Anti-Sicilian with colours reversed: 1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3, the name of which I can't remember at the moment. White only plays x.Nc3 if this transposition to the Closed Sicilian favours him.

As Black:
1.c4 g6 (one idea is only to play ...Nf6 after White has committed himself to d2-d4) 2.Nc3 Bg7 3.g3 (what else?) d6 4.Bg2 e5 and White's main options are 5.d3, 5.e3, 5.e4 and 5.Nf3. Against each Black has a choice between 5...Nc6, 6...Be6, 7...Qd7 (the old plan from the Closed Sicilian) and 5...f5, 6...Nf6 (sometimes maybe 6...Nge7), 7...0-0 only then deciding what to do with the queenside. Several sources also recommend 5...Nc6 and 6...Nf6. As this is quite innocent in the Closed Sicilian I don't trust it.
Maybe sometimes Black can play ...c6 and ...Nbd7.
White's extra move here also means that Black has more information to chose the optimal setup.
It is a long time since I looked at this. I remember that I thought the Botvinnik the hardest to meet, mainly because of the pawn block e4/f4 vs e5/f5.
It looks like the best approach is to figure out which setups against White's four main options offers best chances to sharpen up the game combined with a study of the typical middlegames. Don't forget involve the Closed Sicilian as well.
I don't think it's a good idea to combine the QID with the QGD after 1.c4 e6 2.Nc3/2.Nf3 d5.

If I have some time to waste I will look at some ideas against the Botvinnik; against the Double Fianchetto ...f5 and ...Nf6 should do. White will be slow with his queenside play.

Edit: I think I've got something for you. 1.c4 g6 2.Nc3 Bg7 3.g3 d6 4.Bg2 e5 5.e4 Be6 6.d3 Qd7 7.Nge2 Bh3 8.0-0 h5!? 9.f3 Bxg2 10.Kxg2 h4 11.g4 Nc6 idea 12...0-0-0 and 13...f5 (evt. 13...Nge7 and 14...f5).
If White is smart and plays 5.d3 first then Ne7 6.e4 c6 7.Nge2 Nd7 8.0-0 0-0 and either 9...f5/10...Nf6 or 9...Nf6/10...d5.