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Poll closed Question: Who will win the World Championship in 2008?
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Vishy Anand by at least 2 points    
  1 (1.3%)
Vladimir Kramnik by at least 2 pts    
  2 (2.6%)
Vishy, but it will be close    
  26 (34.2%)
Kramnik, but it will be close    
  36 (47.4%)
A tie and Anand wins    
  4 (5.3%)
A tie and Kramnik wins    
  7 (9.2%)




Total votes: 76
« Created by: Smyslov_Fan on: 10/13/08 at 04:26:14 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships! (Read 76986 times)
Nietzsche
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #91 - 10/19/08 at 05:44:27
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BTW, I wonder if Kramnik would have played a Tartakower had Anand played Bg5.  At any rate, I'm delighted to see a QGD in this match and not a long series of Slavs.

  

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Nietzsche
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #90 - 10/19/08 at 05:15:12
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RE: "as you mentioned morozevich, one may recall their more recent encounter in the Tal Memorial"


I assume you don't mean the Tal Memorial blitz since Kramnik won both of the games against Morozevich (as black and white).    So let's assume you must mean the classical game, where Kramnik equalized as black and then blundered.  I don't think that game demonstrates that he cannot handle messy positions at a high level, but rather that, like all chess players, he can blunder from time-to-time.  But perhaps we disagree on what the game meant.  That's fine...

My point in mentioning Morozevich was that he considered a tremendous player of complicated, messy positions and yet Kramnik won that brilliant game against him in that very style... and rather recently.  Kramnik also has a plus score against him; even in rapid games (and classical). I simply think Kramnik is unrated in these types of games BECAUSE he is famous for his technical, boa-crush style.  

By the way, Kramnik also has a plus against Shirov (another famous tactician and master of chaos).  So, I guess what I trying to say is that he's still a very, very strong tactician, but this facts tends to be overlooked since he's probably the best strategic/technical player in the world.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #89 - 10/18/08 at 20:48:26
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I recently read Huebner's comments that he couldn't tell the styles of the top players apart any more because they all seem to rely so heavily on computer analysis.  

He overstates the case, but since the computer has become virtually hegemonic in chess, the top players have had to become incredibly precise calculators.

I still think there are differences in the styles of Anand and Kramnik, and those differences are what will make this match great and may even determine the champion.  The average viewer on ICC has extremely exaggerated views of the two contestants, and even some of the IMs refer to Kramnik as "Drawnik".  

Such comments are unfair to both players, as these really are the two best players in the world right now, and have been the two best players since Kasparov's retirement, if not longer.  To be the best in the world right now means that these two have excelled in learning the lessons of the computers while maintaining their own flair for the game.

These are two of my favorite active players for a number of reasons, and I suspect that if Kramnik manages to even the match, the fans on ICC will start talking about Anand choking under pressure rather than congratulating Kramnik's brilliance.  Perhaps it's just the nature of today's chess fans to be blind to the beauty of the game and only see what the computers they're using tell them to see.

(By the way, I have never seen a computer give a "!" to a move.)
  
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Ptero
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #88 - 10/18/08 at 19:08:32
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Nietzsche wrote on 10/18/08 at 17:39:43:


Also, he is tactically strong enough to have a plus score against Anand and Topalov in classical chess. Neither Kramnik or Anand are nearly as one-sided as some people here are saying.  Both are great chess players which many facets to their play.

And if you don't think Kramnik still has what it takes to win messy positions, take a look at Kramnik-Morozevick 2007 MEX WCC.


I did not mean that Kramnik is a lousy tactician, surely he is an extremely good one and can win many games in tactical style. I meant that handling messy games is a slight weakness of him relative to the 2800 stratosphere (as you mentioned morozevich, one may recall their more recent encounter in the Tal Memorial).  
  
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #87 - 10/18/08 at 17:39:43
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Strange choice today for Anand.  I thought he'd try to go on the attack while Kramnik was down.

The Bf4 line in the QGD used to be a Kramnik favorite and has fallen out of favor in world-class chess in the past few years since black has several good choices and white doesn't appear to gain enough in the main lines.
I remember Kasparov quoted a game from Anand (as black) as proof that white really cannot generate decent winning chances.  I also didn't see any strong preparation...strange choice indeed.

BTW, let's not over-react.  Kramnik has lost ONE game; it is not time to count him out yet.  He really is an excellent match player who basically gave a free point to Topalov and still won the match. Its not like there are only 2 games left or something. Roll Eyes

Also, he is tactically strong enough to have a plus score against Anand and Topalov in classical chess. Neither Kramnik or Anand are nearly as one-sided as some people here are saying.  Both are great chess players which many facets to their play.

And if you don't think Kramnik still has what it takes to win messy positions, take a look at Kramnik-Morozevick 2007 MEX WCC.
  

"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #86 - 10/18/08 at 17:22:53
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I don't think 7.a3 was good against kramnik,
Anand should have either gone for 7. Qc2 c5 8. dxc Nxc 9. 0-0-0
or 7. c5 c6 8. Ld3 b6 9. b4 a5 10. a3 La6 11. b5
  
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #85 - 10/18/08 at 16:50:41
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Ptero wrote on 10/18/08 at 11:55:50:
Obviously, the match is still far from over, and Kramnik has shown in the past that he can superbly handle the off-the-board pressure. The question is whether years of playing risk-averse chess have not somewhat compromised his ability to handle messy games. His situation is different from his prior matches: he was never behind against Kasparov in 2000, and Anand is somewhat stronger than Leko and Topalov and appears to be excellently prepared. 


There is no doubt in my mind that Kramnik is a cut above the field in the strategic games that he plays so well, but though he once had a good tactical intuition, he now seems to go astray in "messy" games, as you put it.  Anand has definitely been doing well to put the battles on his turf.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/18/08 at 15:33:22:

Kramnik will have to continue pushing as White to even the score, but don't expect too much when he's playing Black.


Agreed.  I recall Kramnik saying something during the Leko match to the effect that even with four games to go and a point down, it was not yet time for desperate measures.  Still, he will probably need (at least?) two wins with white now, so he cannot let many chances slip by.
  
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #84 - 10/18/08 at 15:33:22
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Anand-Kramnik game 4 was a classic game that could have been played in the 1980s.

5.Bf4 and the resulting IQP (Isolated QueenPawn) middlegame was a very safe way for both players to get the draw they wanted.

Kramnik will have to continue pushing as White to even the score, but don't expect too much when he's playing Black.
  
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #83 - 10/18/08 at 11:55:50
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Obviously, the match is still far from over, and Kramnik has shown in the past that he can superbly handle the off-the-board pressure. The question is whether years of playing risk-averse chess have not somewhat compromised his ability to handle messy games. His situation is different from his prior matches: he was never behind against Kasparov in 2000, and Anand is somewhat stronger than Leko and Topalov and appears to be excellently prepared. 

Interesting choice facing Anand today. I would advise him (at the price of 2 cents) to play 1.d4 (though not 4.f3) and keep the pressure on. 1.e4 will probably be answered by some drawing line like the Petroff or Marshal (or perhaps The Wall) after which Kramnik will be able to regain his footing. There is also more risk involved – Kramnik can try to win with black (as he did against Leko in the penultimate game of their 2004 match) as 1.d4 is his “domain” (though I doubt he’ll go to drastic measures at this early stage of the match).        
  
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #82 - 10/18/08 at 06:24:31
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There's another dangerous analogy for Anand fans.  Anand took the lead against Kasparov before Kasparov buried him.

I don't like analogies because they don't really fit the specifics of new scenarios.  In this case, I am sure that Anand has learned from his first World Championship match, and won't blow the lead in game 4.  I'm not convinced that the match is over, as some seem to believe.   

Kramnik has come from behind against Leko and Topalov, but this does feel different.  I voted for Kramnik to win a close one, but if I was voting today, I'd vote for Anand.  This was a very nice win despite some time pressure mistakes by both sides.
  
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #81 - 10/18/08 at 05:54:06
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This game confirms my original pre match belief that Vishy would win. However.... i have to remind myself of Kasparov -Karpov (Seville) game 1 in the English where Karpov sprung a big novelty with 9...e3 and even Kasparov-Short -Qc2 Nimzo where short introduced the qa5 idea. The big question is whether this new 14... Bb7 will stand up to analysis. the only thing I am sure of is that Vishy got his match tactics right aiming for messy unclear and tactical positions. I am convinced that Kramnik is tactically weaker than what he was say in the late 90s - 

Today is a big day- if Kramnik loses again then it's good night for him. One day he must surely get a chance to show his prep. I expect 1d4 again but this time 4 e3 nimzo (I am sceptical on 4f3)
  
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #80 - 10/17/08 at 23:07:49
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I'll just quote a superior expert:
Willempie wrote on 10/14/08 at 11:16:53:
If Anand wins by a large margin, I want it to be noted that my superior insight predicted this.

If not just forget about it Wink


Seriously imo the games 3 and 4 are crucial and I think Anand will come up with something similar to Short vs Karpov (as Short describes in the foreword to Greet's Spanish book) and get his opponent off balance.

  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #79 - 10/17/08 at 22:49:59
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A great game that surely spices up this match. Great preparation by Anand, daring Kramnik out of his comfort zone. Kram responded with some inspired chess (18.Bf4!!, 19.Nxd4!?), but Vishy kept on the pressure. Now I’m afraid Kramnik has to win at least two games, as getting into rapid tie-breaks against Anand is not an enticing option.
  
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #78 - 10/17/08 at 20:35:40
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micawber wrote on 10/17/08 at 14:55:38:
@Willempie: Meran, following an "obscure" mastergame from Germany 1993 as far as I can tell, with Kramnik the first to play an improvement,
but finding Anand well prepared.

Ah thanks. Those transpositions in 1.d4 openings are a bit much for a lifelong 1.e4 player Wink

Very nice game. I am quite rooting for Anand, but I hadnt expected Kramnik to take the game into such an inbalanced position, quite unlike the way he is often perceived. So hopefully he'll go on on that path and we'll see some other nice games.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Anand-Kramnik 2008 World Championships!
Reply #77 - 10/17/08 at 20:14:41
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micawber wrote on 10/17/08 at 17:52:54:
I am also curious about the consequences of 18.Nd2 (iso of the game move 18.Bf4)


GM Dimitrov @ Chessdom gives 18.Nd2 Ke7!? (18.-h5) 19.Bxd7 (19.Qxg4 Qxb5 20.Ne4 Ne5) 19.-Rag8 20.Bb5 Bxg3 as an interesting continuation.
  
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