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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I voted. (Read 46677 times)
Nietzsche
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Re: I voted.
Reply #56 - 11/06/08 at 00:55:36
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Obama will maintain or lower taxes for about 98% of Americans.
And that's raising taxes to you? Seriously?

And raising taxes will raise unemployment and "vice versa"?
Well, its just not that simple.
Our current Bush administration proved otherwise.

Bush has lowered taxes (right?) and yet unemployment has gone way up since Clinton was in office (right?)


Also, you keep speaking about the economic plans, and for "most economists", but I'm afraid you're deciding this based on network news rather than economic journals or other professional publications.  
You don't have any sort of degree in economics or any expertise in the area.  So, I really think you might want to tone it down a bit.

And Clinton's legacy?   
Well, he did balance the budget (in fact, he left the government with a SURPLUS), we had strong international ties, a strong economy (booming in fact), and no war.  How would that sound right about now?      Smiley

Yeah, Bill couldn't 'keep it in his pants' and he lied about it.  That sucked.
That has tarnished his legacy to be sure, but what he accomplished in office in simply amazing compared to what we have 8 years later.  There has been an indubitable decline in education, health care, the economy and civil liberties!!   Roll Eyes
Oh yeah, and MORE government spending, a massive debt, and a weak reputation abroad.  I don't know about best president...but he was clearly MUCH better than what we've had since.


Nietzsche

p.s. - all politics aside, if you're shipping out soon I wish you God's speed and a safe return.  Thank you for your contribution to this country, we need it!
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: I voted.
Reply #55 - 11/06/08 at 00:35:17
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trw wrote on 11/06/08 at 00:10:20:

LOL SURPASSED BY REAGAN? Now I know you're a lunatic or a reagantic. He's compares as the worst president right up there with Bush JR and Nixon. 

I know Clinton being the best since Eisenhower is an opinion but when you compare that he has no competition other than Bush Sr... its not a hard call. of course reagan doesn't surpass him lol 


What, do tell, is Clinton's legacy? Anything specific come to mind?

Reagan has an actual legacy, something you think of immediately when his name comes up, and unlike Nixon, it isn't for a bad thing.

It's an opinion either way. As an example - Lincoln was one of the worst POTUS in history given his record with the Constitution, and his severe mishandling of the Civil War, in my opinion.
  

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trw
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Re: I voted.
Reply #54 - 11/06/08 at 00:10:20
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BPaulsen wrote on 11/05/08 at 15:03:12:
trw wrote on 11/05/08 at 14:52:49:

Uh Bill Clinton is the best president America has had since Eisenhower. I know that isn't saying much though cause the only other decent president was Bush SR. Congrats to Obama though!


The opinion on Bill Clinton being the best president America has had since Eiseinhower is not shared by many people. Most view him as the second best over that time span. There were many things that Clinton did that people didn't like. He only gets the credit he does because he had a huge economic boom (which he did nothing himself to obtain) happen under his presidency.

Bush Senior was not as good as Clinton, but Reagan's legacy far surpasses Clinton's.


LOL SURPASSED BY REAGAN? Now I know you're a lunatic or a reagantic. He's compares as the worst president right up there with Bush JR and Nixon. 

I know Clinton being the best since Eisenhower is an opinion but when you compare that he has no competition other than Bush Sr... its not a hard call. of course reagan doesn't surpass him lol 
  
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kylemeister
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Re: I voted.
Reply #53 - 11/05/08 at 21:44:30
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Some of the foregoing puts me in mind of Greg Mankiw (the Harvard economist chosen by W to be CEA chairman), who wrote in his principles text of the "charlatans and cranks" who advised Reagan (regarding lower tax rates producing higher revenue), and of how revenue in fact fell below its projected path after the Reagan tax cuts.  Another thing I recall is a fairly recent paper from (I think) Treasury, scoring a 10% across-the-board tax cut, and finding that in the most favorable scenario it would be something like 25% self-financing (not, mind, over 100%).

Also, regarding Obama's plan, I believe the finding (by Urban/Brookings) was that it would lead to a reduction in the percentage of GDP taken in federal (not just income) taxes -- something like from 21.1, where it is set to be now, to fluctuating around the mid-18s.  (In recent years total taxes in the US have been in the neighborhood of 29% of GDP, with the federal share in the neighborhood of 20%.)
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: I voted.
Reply #52 - 11/05/08 at 21:39:52
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Markovich wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:32:39:

I suggest you take that to an attorney, along with your flat earth diagrams, and sue the federal government.  Since there is no point in debating a fool, I will cease herewith.


I intend to sue the government no more than I intend to sue them over their involvement in marriage that has caused the fiasco of a social issue we have on our hands now.

Your extremely poor understanding of the Constitution is pretty evident though, so I won't argue with an invalid any further on this subject.

Quote:

As to Reagan, look up ceteris paribus.


Since you're apparently keen on patronizing and not reading what I write, let me quote myself:

Quote:
It doesn't need to be the case all other things being the same. It just needs to work.


You're not witty for using a common philosophical phrase that appears in latin, and then telling someone to look it up.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: I voted.
Reply #51 - 11/05/08 at 21:36:24
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Markovich wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:31:43:

No, on the contrary, it illustrates my point exactly that the actions of the state are always to someone's benefit and someone's cost; the question is merely, whose.


Which makes it a red herring, considering my quote was directed at something else entirely.

I already told you that I agreed with the sentiment earlier, anyway. Obviously when something benefits someone, it is hurting someone else. Look no further than government intervention. It helps some, hurts others. Personal ideology and rationalizations will dictate where a person stands on it. Big deal.
  

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Markovich
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Re: I voted.
Reply #50 - 11/05/08 at 21:32:39
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BPaulsen wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:28:20:
Markovich wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:18:33:

Well, this is a droll interpretation of the Constitution, which leads to the conclusion that essentially all federal policy since 1933 has been unconstitutional.


It's a correct interpretation of the Constitution. Try reading the 9th and 10th Amendments.

The federal government began effectively running over state's rights in 1861. It got substantially worse in 1913


I suggest you take that to an attorney, along with your flat earth diagrams, and sue the federal government.  Since there is no point in debating a fool, I will cease herewith.

As to Reagan, look up ceteris paribus.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: I voted.
Reply #49 - 11/05/08 at 21:31:57
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Markovich wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:29:01:

No, I'm afraid it has never been the case that cutting taxes ceteris paribus increased the level of revenues.  There was a rather bizarre theory to that effect at one time, but it was refuted by many empirical studies.  Science does occasionally trump belief.


It doesn't need to be the case all other things being the same. It just needs to work. 

It did work.

Unless you want to sit here and tell me how it didn't during Reagan's tenure, or that his increased revenues were not a result of lower taxes.
  

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Markovich
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Re: I voted.
Reply #48 - 11/05/08 at 21:31:43
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BPaulsen wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:24:20:
Markovich wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:18:33:

You mean like Haliburton, Blackwater, and the military-industrial complex in general?


Nice red herring.


No, on the contrary, it illustrates my point exactly that the actions of the state are always to someone's benefit and someone's cost; the question is merely, whose.
  

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Markovich
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Re: I voted.
Reply #47 - 11/05/08 at 21:29:01
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BPaulsen wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:21:03:
Markovich wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:18:33:
BPaulsen:

"Reduced taxes usually results in higher tax revenues, and vice-versa. Even more so in a recession."

That belief is on a par with creationism and flat earth theory.  I suggest you try to inform yourself by other means than listening to Rush Limbaugh.  


It would be on par with those if it had no truth.

Oh wait, it happened during Reagan's tenure. 



No, I'm afraid it has never been the case that cutting taxes ceteris paribus increased the level of revenues.  There was a rather bizarre theory to that effect at one time, and was trotted out to justify Reagan's policies, but it was refuted by many empirical studies.  Science does occasionally trump belief.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: I voted.
Reply #46 - 11/05/08 at 21:28:20
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Markovich wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:18:33:

Well, this is a droll interpretation of the Constitution, which leads to the conclusion that essentially all federal policy since 1933 has been unconstitutional.


It's a correct interpretation of the Constitution. Try reading the 9th and 10th Amendments.

The federal government began effectively running over state's rights in 1861. It got substantially worse in 1913
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: I voted.
Reply #45 - 11/05/08 at 21:24:20
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Markovich wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:18:33:

You mean like Haliburton, Blackwater, and the military-industrial complex in general?


Nice red herring.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: I voted.
Reply #44 - 11/05/08 at 21:21:03
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Markovich wrote on 11/05/08 at 21:18:33:
BPaulsen:

"Reduced taxes usually results in higher tax revenues, and vice-versa. Even more so in a recession."

That belief is on a par with creationism and flat earth theory.  I suggest you try to inform yourself by other means than listening to Rush Limbaugh.  


It would be on par with those if it had no truth.

Oh wait, it happened during Reagan's tenure. 

And I don't listen to Rush, save your patronizing garbage for somebody else. Roll Eyes
  

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Re: I voted.
Reply #43 - 11/05/08 at 21:18:33
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BPaulsen:

"Reduced taxes usually results in higher tax revenues, and vice-versa. Even more so in a recession."

That belief is on a par with creationism and flat earth theory.  I suggest you try to inform yourself by other means than listening to Rush Limbaugh.  

"I wish I could find the quote that says something to the effect that the greatest downfall of democracy is when people find out they can vote themselves stuff from the treasury."

You mean like Haliburton, Blackwater, and the military-industrial complex in general?

"Federal involvement in any of those issues is unconstitutional by definition. All of those should be done entirely be the state."

Well, this is a droll interpretation of the Constitution, which leads to the conclusion that essentially all federal policy since 1933 has been unconstitutional.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: I voted.
Reply #42 - 11/05/08 at 21:13:55
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kylemeister wrote on 11/05/08 at 20:23:56:
You keep referring to Obama's tax increases, without acknowledging that his plan represents a net tax cut (according to e.g. the analysis by the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center).

It might be noted that in the NBER survey, there was a clear edge for Obama even among the respondents who said they do not identify with either the Republican or Democratic party.

It's an interesting view that a set of economic proposals which received fairly good marks in that survey, from a candidate who is advised by centrist establishment-type economists like Austan Goolsbee, would nonetheless be "suicidal" and "collapse the economy."


I know what Obama's plan is, and concerning the idea that it will be a net tax cut is only focused on income tax.

I am not, nor will I ever be, only focused on one aspect of the tax code. He is going to raise taxes in other areas, and has to anyway, to pay for his intended spending.

His plan was endorsed because it was better than McCain's. That's not saying much. This is backed up by one of the sources you quoted.

Quote:
Tax policy has been a major issue in the Presidential election campaign, with both candidates proposing extensive changes. The candidates take very different approaches to tax policy. The main differences are two: first, McCain’s plans would reduce revenues by significantly more than Obama’s; and second, McCain’s would be substantially less progressive, especially among very high income taxpayers. From the standpoint of growth or simplicity, both plans disappoint. It is hard to believe that either set of changes would have significant growth effects on the economy.


The only person that had any correct idea on fixing the economy was Peter Schiff, who has predicted absolutely everything that has happened to date. He was Ron Paul's advisor.
  

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