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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Endgamestudies (Read 100044 times)
Dink Heckler
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #138 - 08/22/09 at 22:22:09
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This trend towards hyperactive moderation is getting ridiculous. Do you, SF, intend to upbraid people anytime you disagree with the tone or tenor of one of their remarks?! Please treat people like adults. This sort of heavy-handed moderation is a much greater threat to the integrity of the forum than the occasional pointed exchange.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #137 - 08/22/09 at 17:25:40
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Spüler wrote on 08/22/09 at 01:29:29:
Ask your IMs or GMs what they do against my winning manoevre.  Cheesy


I'm not particularly happy with the tone of this exchange.  It's perfectly reasonable to challenge anyone's analysis, but you seem to suggest that if another poster was a better player he would appreciate your winning idea.  This sort of arrogance isn't needed here.
  
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Spüler
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #136 - 08/22/09 at 01:29:29
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By the way, I had a look at it for half an hour. Now I think 1.Nxf7 and 2.Nd8! wins too. And it is pretty easy. In every case of the 11 possibilities you proposed nearly the same manoeuvre wins for White! He will pick up the e6 pawn with his rook while avoiding pins, then he will put his knight on c6, maybe first his rook on f6 with ckeck, and then play one of the three possibilities a)put the rook on d6 and push the e-pawn or b) collect the black a-pawns or c) both a and b! Black has dozens of queen moves in every single move, but he can do absolutely nothing! And thats the reason why computers don't see it maybe. Too many black queen moves are possible to calculate them all, but the winning manoevre works in every case I think. (Meantime I ckecked your ...Qxg2 Fritz position with my computer and he says about +4 after 5 minutes and this is increasing with the time - seems far from equal!). Ask your IMs or GMs what they do against my winning manoevre.  Cheesy
  
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #135 - 08/22/09 at 00:30:16
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Günter Amann wrote on 08/21/09 at 23:36:02:
Helloyou can belive me that i considered the possibility of 1.Nxf7!

Ok, you say 1.Nxf7 is also a forced analytical win which would refute the whole study of course.


Hello,
I think you misunderstood me. I do believe that you considered 1.Nxf7. Of course I do. I also wondered why there is a black pawn on a6 and not a white one without the one on a5. And I dind't say "1.Nxf7 is also a forced analytical win". I only said that the position after 1.Nxf7 Qh4 2.Nd8 Qc4+ 3.Rc6 Qd5 4.Rxe6+ Kf8 5.Rf6+ Ke8 6.Nc6 (or after 5...Kg7) is maybe won and I think it is. And I don't make a huge analysis now. Maybe some day, but not now. I said I enjoy your studies. I don't want to refute them. But I don't see a clear way for Black to hold after 1.Nxf7 and 2.Nd8. It's not my job to prove another white win, it's yours to prove the draw for Black (but only if you want to prove the correctness of your study in this term). Maybe there are too many possibilities... - and this is one reason why we also like the game, isn't it? Some studies are very beautiful and their correctness will never be proven and they will never be refuted! The point is, you don't see a clear path for Black after 1.Nxf7 and 2.Nd8 to hold, do you? This is all I asked about.  Wink
  
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Günter Amann
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #134 - 08/21/09 at 23:36:02
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[quote author=Amann link=1226434702/120#134 date=1250897612]Hello,

you can belive me that i considered the possibility of 1.Nxf7!
This move was the reason why i added black an additional pawn on a6 ( i don`t like to add some pieces in a studies witout a reason) instead of a white pawn on a6 and black pawn on a7  to secure black enough chances of counterplay in this line. I think it´s enough, Fritz 11 thinks it´s enough and some strong players ( IM and GM) which i showed the 
study are also of the same opinion.

Ok, you say 1.Nxf7 is also a forced analytical win which would refute the whole study of course.
Please can you prove your opinion in the following lines:
1.Nxf7         Kf8

1.Nxf7         Qh4
2.Nd8          a)Qg5
                 b)Qg4
                 c)Qg3
                 d)Qb4
                 e)Qa4
                 f)Qe4
                 g)Qe1
                 h)Qh7
                 i)Qh5
                 j)Qc4

If you can show an analytical forced win  in these lines with clear variations and a clear winning positon for white (not white is better and  has good winning chances) the study is refuted.
  
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #133 - 08/21/09 at 21:08:46
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Günter Amann wrote on 08/21/09 at 13:40:48:
Fritz suggests 
5.Rf6 Kg7
6.Nc6 Qxg2 as equal.


This shows again a situation in which one should really not trust computers. "Equal" is ridiculous. It's obvious that White is better. The question is wheather it's enough for a win or not.

Günter Amann wrote on 08/21/09 at 13:40:48:
But i am sure that you can not prove a forced win for white in this variation. The stipulation of the study is white to move and win (forced variation with a clear result at the end)and not white to move and get some winning chances! Wink

Maybe one can "prove" a win with some analysis! Why not? The question wheater 1.Nxf7 wins or not seems not to be of interest to you. Ok, now we know your definition of "study". This is quite ok, but some people require a unique solution for a "study". If 1.Nxf7 wins, this puzzle would not be a "study" in their sense. But anyway, the 1.Nh7-solution of the puzzle/study/whatever-you-call-it  is very nice!  Wink
  
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #132 - 08/21/09 at 15:39:49
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congratulation Smiley
  
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #131 - 08/21/09 at 14:29:43
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Günter Amann wrote on 08/21/09 at 12:09:43:
1.Rf5           Kh4!
2.Kd2          Rxd3!
3.Kxd3        Bg6
4.Ke4          Kg4 and black wins


1.Rf5       Kh4
2.Rf1!      Bh2
(2...Rxd3+ 3.Ke2 Bh2! 4.Rh1! transposes, any B move along a7-g1 is met by 3.Kc2 Rxd3?! 4.Rh1+)
3.Rh1      Rxd3+
4.Ke2      Bb5
5.Rxh2+  Rh3+
6.Kf2       Rxh2
7.Kg1      Kg3
stalemate!

I feel bad for non-chess players who never get to experience this kind of beauty.

Not sure, though, if it makes any difference whether White plays 3.Ke2 or 3.Rh1 first, though. I can't see what Black can do to avoid the main line in either case.
  
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Günter Amann
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #130 - 08/21/09 at 13:40:48
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Fritz suggests 
5.Rf6 Kg7
6.Nc6 Qxg2 as equal.

But these Variations are by no means forced. Black has several other Queenmoves instead of 2... Qc4 or 3...Qd5 and maybe 1...Kf8 is also good enough. Generally i think that Balck has enough counterplay if he manages to bring out his queen but you are right that white can try to play for a win given it would be a tournamentgame. But i am sure that you can not prove a forced win for white in this variation. The stipulation of the study is white to move and win (forced variation with a clear result at the end)and not white to move and get some winning chances! Wink
  
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #129 - 08/21/09 at 12:37:29
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Günter Amann wrote on 08/21/09 at 11:30:02:
Hello,

1.Nxf7           Qh4! ( maybe Kf8 is also good enough, but i think it´s
                              better to bring the queen in to the game at  
                              once)
2.Nd8!           Qc4! (according to Fritz 11 other moves are also 
                           possible to maintain the balance)
3.Rc6            Qd5
4.Rxe6           Kf8
5.Rxa6           Qxe5
6.Rxa7           Qc5 draw


No, not giving the e-pawn away! I thought 1.Nxf7 Qh4 2.Nd8! Qc4+ 3.Rc6 and after your 3...Qd5 4.Rxe6+ Kf8 I suggest 5.Rf6+! Ke8 6.Nc6!. Look how they protect each other (R,N,pawn e5 and a5 ist protected too). Maybe White can win this. I think he can, but I'm not completely sure.
  
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #128 - 08/21/09 at 12:09:43
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1.Rf5           Kh4!
2.Kd2          Rxd3!
3.Kxd3        Bg6
4.Ke4          Kg4 and black wins
  
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #127 - 08/21/09 at 11:54:53
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Hmm, I think 1.Rf5 draws.

1...Kh6 2.Kd2 and White can protect everything.

1...Kh4 2.Kd2 same as above

1...Kg4 Rf3 and everything is protected.
  
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #126 - 08/21/09 at 11:30:02
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Hello,

1.Nxf7           Qh4! ( maybe Kf8 is also good enough, but i think it´s
                              better to bring the queen in to the game at  
                              once)
2.Nd8!           Qc4! (according to Fritz 11 other moves are also 
                           possible to maintain the balance)
3.Rc6            Qd5
4.Rxe6           Kf8
5.Rxa6           Qxe5
6.Rxa7           Qc5 draw
  
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #125 - 08/21/09 at 01:25:15
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Hi Günter!
I like the one in #105. When I found the solution 1.Nh7 f6 2.Ng5 I thought thats it. But how can I see clearly that there is no win possible after 1.Nxf7 and 2.Nd8! to pick up all black kingside pawns and play continues?
The next I will try is #114 - the third Amann-12-men in a row! Wow!
  
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #124 - 08/19/09 at 18:45:37
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Ok your beginning was naturual and correct:

1.Bc2                                                  cxd3
2.Bxd3                                                 Rd7! 
3.Bf6! (winning the last black pawn)        Kxf6
4.Rxf4                                                  Kg5

The problem now for white is not his material disadvantage but the bad placement of his pieces. How can he save the game?

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