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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Endgamestudies (Read 100063 times)
Girkassa
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #153 - 09/08/09 at 14:28:23
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I also took 2-3 mins and ended up with the same line as TN, so either it's the correct solution or there's a hidden point which is easy to miss when you do it quickly.
  
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chk
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #152 - 09/08/09 at 11:24:45
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That's an great Queen triangulation. I'm also amazed if you solved this in 2-3' (if it is correct). I was looking at it for more than 15' and could not force Ka8 with a tempo! (finally I gave up Embarrassed).

P.S.: Pb7 is important as it also allows for a fortress after the underpromotion 6. h8=B.
  

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TN
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #151 - 09/07/09 at 20:52:24
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Here's my solution (took me about 2-3 minutes to solve so I may have made an error):

1.b6! (all other moves draw) 1...Kb8! (1...Kb6 2.h4 a5 3.h5 a4 4.h6 a3 5.h7 a2 6.h8=Q and White wins) 2.h4 a5 3.h5 a4 4.h6 a3 5.h7 a2 6.h8=Q a1=Q 7.Qg8! and White wins, since Black cannot prevent Kd7/Ke7 with checkmate. And after 7...Qa2 8.Qe8 Qa4 9.Qe5 Ka8 10.Qh8! Black will be mated in a few moves.

Very nice study, the b7-pawn makes all the difference! Wink
  

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Günter Amann
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #150 - 09/07/09 at 19:53:03
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   D.Joseph, 1921                                                

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

White to play and win
  
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sssthepro
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #149 - 09/07/09 at 01:04:36
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New study? Smiley
  
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Günter Amann
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #148 - 09/04/09 at 22:38:40
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Hello, 

meanwhile i tried almost every posslibilities to defend the black position. One interesting is maybe 

1.Nxf7 Qh4
2.Nd8  Qh5
3.Rxe6 Kf8
4.Rf6    Ke8
5.Nc6    Qh3! (more trickier than Qf5)
6.Kb7    Qb3 now black has Qc4 check in some lines
7.Kxa7 (Kc7!?)

But after examining these lines i must conclude that white is probably also winnig after Nxf7 which of course  refutes the study. You are right i could place the knight in the initial positon on f8. Another solution would be to insert a black pawn on h7 or 3(!) black a-pawns (a7,a6,a5)
in the initial postion. Unfortunately i think the position loses the natural character. Nevertheless i think i  found a solution and i hope it works correctly this time.

                                               
« Last Edit: 09/05/09 at 08:33:26 by Günter Amann »  
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Spüler
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #147 - 09/03/09 at 15:53:22
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Hi Günter!
A problem in one single study should't prevent you from continuing your presentation of selected studies. I like the one in #114. It's not very easy to get it from the initial position without moving (I failed) and it has its points. I already like the aesthetic piece arrangement. I searched for different stalemates, but the very nice one from the solution I missed completely first.
By the way the aforementioned problem is repairable by putting the white knight on f8 at the beginning. But then some attractiveness disappears of course. Maybe you can find a better repaired variation of your idea. I never composed a study. About how long do you need for one of the kind you presented here?
Kind regards, Spüler
  
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Günter Amann
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #146 - 08/25/09 at 16:08:27
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You are absolutely right papageno, black is lost in this line!
I will try to find something better.
  
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Spüler
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #145 - 08/25/09 at 13:25:41
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Hello,
Indeed, after 1.Nxf7 Qh4 2.Nd8 Qg5 3.Rxe6+ Kf8 4.Nc6 Günters move 4...Qg4! is based on another fantastic resource of defense: To use the stalemate motif to force the white king out and then having a perpetual. In the line 5.Kd7 Kf7 6.Nd8+ Kf8 7.Kc7! Qc4! 8.Rc6 Qg4! 9.Rf6+ Ke8 10.Rd6 Qg7 11.Kc8 Qg4 I tried to improve with 12.Kb8 or 9.Kb8 or the waiting move 7.g3, but in the first two cases the knight must go to b7 to protect the a5 pawn and then the white king has not as much space as in the real "Spüler position" with the knight on c6, and in the latter case White gives the g-pawn in a slow way because Black can reposition his queen quickly. The reason why I didn't go further with 4.Rf6+ to get a "Spüler position" is not I thought the game were drawn after Kxa6 but because I thought it would go even better than allowing to cut off the white king temporarily. 
Of course White can not force the best "Spüler position". Otherwise we wouldn't need any concrete analysis. But the "second best" Spüler position is good enough maybe. I think we should think about Papageno's line! It seems very convincing. The most 6-men with only the white a-pawn I tried earlier were drawn. That's why I wanted to avoid giving the e-pawn. But in Papageno's line it seems to work quite well. His diagram position is won wherever you put the black queen on the board I think!
Maybe I'm on holiday for 5 days now, but then I will be back and ckeck your comments.
  
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Papageno
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #144 - 08/25/09 at 12:38:35
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I want to draw your attention to a line that has been discussed in #141 and 142:
1. Nxf7 Qh4 2. Nd8 Qg5 3. Rxe6+ Kf8 4. Rf6+ Ke8 5. Nc6 Qf5+ 6. Kb7 Qb1+ 7. Kxa6 Kd7 
You seemed to agree that the white king is misplaced or cut off. However, in my opinion, White has another dangerous winning plan here: He might just try to queen his a-pawn (with the help and protection by R and N) and even drop the e-pawn and g-pawn for this goal, say
8. Nxa7 Qd3+ 9. Nb5 Ke7 10. Rd6 Qe2 11. Kb6 Qxe5 12. a6+-

The judgement "white is winning" for the final position may seem bold at first sight. But we can look up the tablebases for a very similar position (dropping the pawn g2 from the final position in order to make it a 6-men).

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* White wins in 40 here.

I'm not claiming that this line is forced. My moves 8-12 are just meant to show another problem for the defending side.

  
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Günter Amann
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #143 - 08/25/09 at 09:30:22
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Hello Mister Spüler,

first thank you for your interest and your good analysis!  I want to try maybe a better move after 4.Nc6: Qg4! avoiding your really tricky line 4....Qf5 5.Kd7! Kf7 6.Kc7!!

Ok lets try

4.Nc6                                    Qg4 (!)
5.Kd7 (Nd8 Qg7)                     Kf7
6.Nd8                                     Kf8
and now
a)7.Kc7 !                                 Qc4!
  8.Rc6                                   Qg4! (not allowing the dangerous 
                                                      Spülerplan. 8...Qd5? 9.Rf6 Ke8
                                                      10.Nc6! Qd7 11.Kb8 Qc7 12.Ka8!
                                                      and black seems to be in big 
                                                      trouble, white simply pushes his
                                                      g-pawn; without the pawn on g2
                                                      the position would be a draw)
9.Rf6                                       Ke8
10.Rd6 (10.Nc6 Qc8!!)               Qg7
11.Kc8                                     Qg4
12.Kb7                                     Qb4
13.Kxa6                                   Qc4
14.Kxa7                                   Qc5 and black can hold the balance.

b)7.Kc8                                    Qg7(!)
  8.Nc6                                    Qg4!
  9.Nd8                                    Qg7
  10.Rf6                                   Ke8
  11.Rd6 (Nc6 Qc7!)                  Qg4
  12.Kb7                                  Qb4 leading to variation a)

As i told you i thought that 1.Nxf7 Qh4 must be ok for black because of the roughly material balance and blacks active queen simply trusting in my intuition ( and some really strong players and my dear friend Fritz11 agreed). I must confess that you looked much deeper in to the position and you are right that black is in real danger! When i started to analyze the position it was not easy to refute your idea. But i think the Queen is a very good piece and these variations have shown that black should be able to draw with real accurate play. 
It would be interesting for me to hear the opinion of the forums Masters  ( Tony,Ruslan,Eric,Glenn,Richard,Mihail,David)?
  
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Spüler
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #142 - 08/24/09 at 16:59:01
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Hello!
Please just ignore this (somewhat stupid) comment in #137! This is really ridiculous. I never meant it with arrogance. If it sounded so, I'm sorry, I'm not a native speaker. Please read my words only, not between them, ok? But I think that you like some discussion about your studies. Otherwise you would't have presented them in this forum but elsewhere where you're not assumed to response to comments I think. The position is full of subtilities, thats the reason why I didn't give concrete lines, but only a plan. But if you want to challenge me, we can try some lines:
Ok, indeed after
1.Nxf7   Qh4
2.Nd8    Qg5
3.Rxe6+  Kf8
A) 4.Rf6+   Ke8

A1)
5.Nc6    Qf5+! with the perpetual idea along the b1-h7 diagonal (b1,f5,h7) is very strong and after the try
6.Kb7    Qb1+
7.Kxa7  the white king is really misplaced and cut off along the b-file!

A2) The same problem seems to occur after
5.Rd6 (to cut off the black king along the d-file first) because of 5...Qg4+!
6.Kb7 Qb4+ attacks the a5-pawn.

B) This is the reason why I think in this particular case its better to deal with the pin after
4.Nc6!   Qf5
5.Kd7 and now:
a) 5...Qf7 6.Re7!
b) 5...Kf7 6.Kc7!
c) 5...Qg4 6.Kd6 and then Re7 and Kc7 and again White can reach his "dream position" (Kc7,Nc6,R goes to f6 or d6!, pawns e5 and a5 protected). Then play from the "dream position" starts with the double threat of pushing the e-pawn and collecting the a-pawns without becoming cut off with the king.
Hope I didn't overlook something important.
Anyway, it's a very interesting ending!  Smiley

Would you really bet I would never win this position against an engine? Even if this quesion is completely irrelevant, you should not go for this bet. I think I would win this in a corr game with some intensive work in a few weeks! Even if it would be draw theoretically the engines would make mistakes probably for sure.
  
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Günter Amann
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #141 - 08/24/09 at 08:43:56
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Spüler wrote on 08/22/09 at 01:29:29:
By the way, I had a look at it for half an hour. Now I think 1.Nxf7 and 2.Nd8! wins too. And it is pretty easy.


Hello Mister Spüler,

one of the idea in the initial position is that 1.Nxf7 is not winning because of Qh4 which allows conterplay (many checks also to disrupt the coordination of the white pieces, sometimes perpetual and dont forget stalemate). This is a general consideration without any deep analysis. You say it´s pretty easy, but i bet you will never win this position against an engine. I must admit that i underestimated your idea and it causes black indeed trouble but i try to prove blacks chances with analysis. You think it does not matter what black plays i am not of this opinion. You need to play concrete moves to reach your dream theater (you seem neglecting the fact that black is also allowed to move). Ok i start with variation a).If  you refute it, i try to find something in b!
1.Nxf7                               Qh4
2.Nd8                              a)Qg5 
3.Rxe6                               Kf8
4.Rf6 (Nc6 Qf5)                   Ke8
5.Nc6                                 Qf5!
6.Kb7                                 Qb1
7.Kxa7 (Kxa6)                     Kd7 please can you give in this variation a winning sequence (maybe you add exceptionally some moves?Please not soon i will take the last a pawn and sometimes i will have a new queen ) after which white has a clear winning position.

Edited:
Moderator's note: edited to show the quote.  ~SF
« Last Edit: 08/24/09 at 20:47:31 by Günter Amann »  
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Re: Endgamestudies
Reply #140 - 08/23/09 at 18:55:36
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SF, thanks for your considered response. I apologise for my intemperance.

This Endgame Forum sure is easy to moderate  Grin
  

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SF
Reply #139 - 08/23/09 at 15:28:59
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Dink, 

You're right.  I should have considered more carefully whether my comment was appropriate coming from a moderator.  If it was a serious enough issue, I would have written a private note.  As the moderator, I should have just remained quiet.

~SF

  
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