Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dresden rating regulation and norm changes (Read 17763 times)
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1757
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #39 - 12/27/08 at 00:40:53
Post Tools
drkodos wrote on 12/18/08 at 18:27:01:
Antillian wrote on 12/18/08 at 18:08:22:


The vast majority of chess tournament games will be played by working adults with many other commitments, such as family and demanding jobs. A default of zero is pure madness for normal folks.



The vast majority of all these other "sports" are also played by working adults with many other commtiments, such as family and demanding jobs.  This does not stop responsible, considerate people from being on time.  Most people that play baseball are not professionals.  There are amateur leagues for eveything from bowling to lawn darts to football and ice hocker.   Are most bicyclists professionals?  Hardly.

Across the board, being late at amateur events results in a forfeit, whether it is an Equestrian event, the Monopoly Championships in Atlantic City, or Nine-ball at the local saloon.  

Self absorption and overimportance of the self cross over any taxonomic barriers with regard to what is and what isn't sport.  

Being late is purely a manifestation of selfish and controlling behavior.  

If a flat tire makes one late, that person was ill prepared to begin with, pehaps giving the chance of a flat tire happening too little concern in their planning.  They need a good course in time management, for sure.  Either way, it is the flat-tire sufferer's responsibilty, not the tournament director, or the opponents who did what they needed to do to arrive on time.

Forfeit.


If the time period between work and start of round is so tight that any little glitch might make one late, then perhaps one needs to realize they should probably not be playing that tournament, despite "what they want."    If chess is so important to any person's, then maybe they should take full responsibility to consider even getting a different job, one that affords them a better schedule to play chess. There are many options available that do not force another human being to sit and wait for the more self absorbed person to arrive.



Are you for real? I am not sure if to take you seriously here or not.


  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3276
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #38 - 12/26/08 at 21:44:12
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 12/22/08 at 13:37:36:

There are many things that are rude that nevertheless should not cause someone to forfeit a game of chess.  The question is, what this rule fosters other than (a) the convenience of the arbiters and (b) the smugness of some punctilious people.


TopNotch wrote on 12/26/08 at 18:36:11:

A zero default rule benefits noone as spectators are denied enterainment, arbirters are left without discretionary powers, neither player's rating is affected one way or the other by default points. 
[...]
Being late is already a self imposed penalty, and the beneficiary of such a gift should be mentally tough enough to handle any percieved slights or psychological factors. 


Markovich and TopNotch sum up the arguments perfectly. The question is not if showing up late is rude, we all agree it is (though maybe not to the same extent). Despite this, an immediate forfeit in amateur chess benefits nobody and makes the game more about rules and things external, less about moves. If some people cannot handle getting an advantage on the clock it should be easy to prepare mentally for that; after all much more distracting things can happen during a game.

Chess is the world's most inclusive sport where everybody, young and old, male and female, rich and poor, the disabled etc. can compete on a level playing field. But now some self-righteous people want to make participation more difficult for many people with tight schedules and/or lateness problems. For some reason I cannot fathom, they would rather see the late-comers leave the chess community than showing up 5 minutes late every other game. Why put principles ahead of people like this? Gens una sumus, anyone?!

The zero default rule is obviously a change for the worse. Don't do this to the game I love.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #37 - 12/26/08 at 18:36:11
Post Tools
I think the 0 default rule way too harsh. Speaking as an amateur with a full time job, I can say that often my time is not my own and that to be safely assured to arriving to local events dead on time would require me to take vacation leave. As I reserve much of my leave already for overseas events, this is not an option.

A zero default rule benefits noone as spectators are denied enterainment, arbirters are left without discretionary powers, neither player's rating is affected one way or the other by default points. In fact in my country some players have prefered to intentionally default games against me rather than risk losing elo points, an absurd practice if you ask me.

Being late is already a self imposed  penalty, and the beneficiary of such a gift should be mentally tough enough to handle any percieved slights or psychological factors. There are much more serious offences that need be worried about, such as banging the clock on every move, in one such case an FM opponent of mine once banged the clock so hard to emphasise the strength of his move that he actually restarted his own time running in the process.

Other offences include distractions like incessant snorting by the opponent when one is trying to think. In my national champs this year (2008) an opponent of mine apparently with a sinus condition that apparently only manifested itself on my move, kept hawking so raucously as if trying to remove phlegm lodged in his toe nails. I figured that alerting the arbiter to the problem would have been futile, and may have only risked encouraging my determined opponent to further shenanigans. So I did my best to appear that his hawking and snorting didn't bother me in the least, excused myself from the table, went to the bathroom, entered the stall, rolled off some toilet paper, and stuffed my ears with it and returned to my board some moments later, prepared if queried by the arbiter to proclaim smugly "An ear infection!".

To return to this zero default business I would say that half hour is a decent compromise, but wonder why this has even become such a major issue all of a sudden, especially when there are so many other bigger fish to fry. 

Somehow I sense Nigel Short's meddling finger in this brouhaha.  Angry

Toppy Smiley
« Last Edit: 12/27/08 at 00:25:18 by TopNotch »  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
God Member
*****
Offline


I see....stars.

Posts: 778
Location: Jupiter, and beyond
Joined: 03/29/07
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #36 - 12/26/08 at 16:33:29
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 12/22/08 at 13:37:36:
Bibs wrote on 12/19/08 at 15:09:45:
Keano wrote on 12/19/08 at 13:16:48:
From what I can get this 0 default thing is a Stewart Reuben idea, who thinks it is "rude" not to be there on time. This idea could only come from an Englishman. 


How peculiar. Is being late for an appointment not considered bad form in other parts of the world? In the part of Asia in which I currently reside it is, so not just a Blighty thing. I struggle to fathom how people cannot consider tardiness as simply lacking in manners. Is it an upbringing thing?

Cant believe the rest of the world runs on randomtime.

Advice for Stigma and others who seem to have problems getting to places on time:

Leave earlier. It works.


There are many things that are rude that nevertheless should not cause someone to forfeit a game of chess.  The question is, what this rule fosters other than (a) the convenience of the arbiters and (b) the smugness of some punctilious people.

If one's opponent burns 40 minutes before making his first move, is this an injury to one?



If you sit at the board and burn the time it is different than not showing up to burn to the time.   

If you cannot see the difference (and all its sporting ramifications), then no explanation will penetrate the haze around your thinking regarding this particular issue.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TimS
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 458
Location: London
Joined: 11/02/05
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #35 - 12/26/08 at 16:03:10
Post Tools
I find an opponent turning up late to be distracting ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #34 - 12/22/08 at 13:37:36
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 12/19/08 at 15:09:45:
Keano wrote on 12/19/08 at 13:16:48:
From what I can get this 0 default thing is a Stewart Reuben idea, who thinks it is "rude" not to be there on time. This idea could only come from an Englishman. 


How peculiar. Is being late for an appointment not considered bad form in other parts of the world? In the part of Asia in which I currently reside it is, so not just a Blighty thing. I struggle to fathom how people cannot consider tardiness as simply lacking in manners. Is it an upbringing thing?

Cant believe the rest of the world runs on randomtime.

Advice for Stigma and others who seem to have problems getting to places on time:

Leave earlier. It works.


There are many things that are rude that nevertheless should not cause someone to forfeit a game of chess.  The question is, what this rule fosters other than (a) the convenience of the arbiters and (b) the smugness of some punctilious people.

If one's opponent burns 40 minutes before making his first move, is this an injury to one?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schaakhamster
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 650
Joined: 05/13/08
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #33 - 12/22/08 at 11:32:49
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 12/19/08 at 16:54:48:
Bibs wrote on 12/19/08 at 15:09:45:

Advice for Stigma and others who seem to have problems getting to places on time:

Leave earlier. It works.

Advice for overweight people: Eat less. For those with road rage: Calm down. For depressed people: Don't worry, be happy!

OK I couldn't resist that. It always annoys me when people simply cite the prevailing moral code of (their own) society and think that actually solves any real-world, complex problems.

Even if I agree that lateness is bad manners (and I do), why does it follow that it's better not to see a game played than to see one that starts late? Several games were lost by immediate default at the olympiad and this is a loss to both players and spectators. The only people who benefit from such a draconian measure are arbiters and organizers, who sometimes too easily disregard the interests of players.


For the olympiad I don't agree. These are players that were in dresden for nothing else then playing chess. Getting there on time should be possible without problems. 

A local league game is a different matter. But then again: mostly the same players are always late with ussually the same excuses. 


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2924
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #32 - 12/22/08 at 11:20:13
Post Tools
Didnt Bronstein once take more than 30 mins to play his first move? Eccentric behaviour by all means, but raises the question of how to "police" this new regulation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ehpotsirhc
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 67
Joined: 01/12/07
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #31 - 12/22/08 at 11:07:08
Post Tools
Surprising reactions. As if someone who's late thinks, "hmm... I'll be 30min late just to disrespect my opponent". If you're late, you lose some time. Isn't it enough? Anyone would like to involve the police? And why would you want to win a game that way ("I won: my opponent was 0.1 min late")? Maybe someone is planning on selling atomic chess clocks. That would explain everything. And finally, maybe you should be forfeited for taking too long to play your first move as well (otherwise, it might make your opponent feel like you're late)...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2924
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #30 - 12/22/08 at 09:19:32
Post Tools
Apologies to the great man - but as far as I can tell he does indeed think it "rude". He has the good sense to point out a 0 default is totally unworkable, which we all can see, but wants something less than 1 hour like 30 mins or 15 mins. He´s falling into the same trap of trying to compare chess to other sports though, mark my words this will be a disaster!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #29 - 12/20/08 at 09:30:21
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 12/19/08 at 13:16:48:
From what I can get this 0 default thing is a Stewart Reuben idea, who thinks it is "rude" not to be there on time. This idea could only come from an Englishman. I remember the same chap giving out about a players play being "disrepectful" to the opponent because he was playing an irregular opening - what will be next?



Where did you get this idea? Stewart has posted on the English Chess forum (http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=514&start=15) and is against the change.

There is no need to make the prejudiced remark.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cyronix
Ex Member
*



Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #28 - 12/20/08 at 09:15:03
Post Tools
Personally I also think one hour lateness is too much.
Maybe we should reduce the limit for coming to late to 15-30 Minutes.

Other changes I'd like to see, but that will never come true: 
  • Increment in every time mode, so no loss of a totally winning position due to time trouble is possible. I mean chess is still a game of strategical thinking and calculation and not of moving pieces fast.
  • Chess should not be just one game, but two games, once black, once white. I mean how often do you encounter players totally satisfied with a draw as white, doing basically nothing, exchanging where ever they can to make the position dull, and waiting for you to weaken yourself, because you want to win, and then using your weaknesses to win themselves. 
    With two games with different colors, it is no big deal to draw them with black, but then you are white, you just knock em out! 
    Points should be given according to the mini-match outcome (win, lose, draw) and not single games of course.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1414
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #27 - 12/19/08 at 21:49:36
Post Tools
GMTonyKosten wrote on 12/18/08 at 22:26:00:
Did anyone see my article about FIDE rule changes in the 2009 Chess Companion? Isn't this another idea in the same mold?

Link?


I think people are missing here that they would rather see the games played than forfeits issued. I myself just finished a FIDE event where I arrived about 30 minutes early. I sat and talked with the organizer and arbiter for awhile while my opponent sat at the board. Then the organizer said everyone take your seats the round is going to start. It just so happened he had said this about 3 minutes late. My opponent had started the clock on the hour before the organizer had started the round even though I was right there waiting for the round to begin. It doesn't matter though because I crushed him anyways. The point is though would he be able to claim a forfeit and get it? It would be simply absurd if so.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
condor
Junior Member
**
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 63
Location: Norwich
Joined: 08/13/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #26 - 12/19/08 at 18:04:54
Post Tools
As with most comparisons, chess isn't like other sports. This rule will punish people for things beyond their control.

In league chess, there's nothing more exciting than watching a team burst through the doors then sprint to their boards at 7:59.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lou_Cyber
Full Member
***
Offline


"I didn´t understand that.
It must be true."

Posts: 237
Location: Rendsburg
Joined: 01/28/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dresden rating regulation and norm changes
Reply #25 - 12/19/08 at 17:13:01
Post Tools
I am in favor of the 0 default setting, provided some exceptions can be made by an arbiter.

We are in unison that chess should be treated with respect by all players. Therefore it is not acceptable if a player arrives 30 min after the beginning of the team match....last sunday we had an away match beginning at 10.am and my opponent turned up at 10.45 am (clocks were started at 10.15). All he had to do is to get up, have a coffee, perhaps even a shower and walk over to the playing venue. He seemed to enjoy his sleep instead. I like to sleep in too, but had to get up at 06.30 am in order to arrive on time, which was one hour too early the way things turned out.

I likewise notice a sloppyness of members regarding meeting for chess matches. Quite often traveling is planned at very tight and physically dangerous schedule (...no speed limit on german motorways) with the argument that a delay is not too bad just as long it does not exceed 1 hour.

Furthermore there is the problem of the no-shows. It is very annoying to wait for one hour before having the right to claim a forfeit. Most people may have better things to do than waiting for somebody who does not arrive.

Still arbiters should have the right to allow exceptions, if the delayed party gets in a traffic jam, a train has a delay etc. and if the delay is announced before the match starts. With cellphones this shouldn´t be a problem. Common sense will do the trick.

This is not a japanese/german/english thing. It comes down to respect to your opponent and the game.
  

If you try, you may lose. If you don´t try, you have lost.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo