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lack of respect among chess players (Read 35871 times)

IM Christoph Wisnewski Full Member Offline International Master Posts: 195 Location: Kiel Joined: 04/03/05 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #22 - 01/11/09 at 09:49:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Toppy I would have played 69...g1B

	"Chess you don't learn, chess you understand!" (V. Korchnoi)
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Dragan Glas Senior Member Offline "If I, like Solomon, ... could have my wish - " Posts: 424 Location: Ireland Joined: 06/25/06 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #21 - 01/11/09 at 02:08:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Greetings, TopNotch wrote on 01/10/09 at 23:38:55: Dragan Glas wrote on 01/10/09 at 22:47:06: Greetings, I believe there's a saying: "Nobody won anything by resigning!" Psychological warfare - looks like it got to you TopNotch - sounds like Chess for Tigers! Kindest regards, Dragan Glas Perhaps so, but you won't benefit from many post mortems that way. Playing on in hopeless positions and/or till mate maybe beneficial for beginners or in blitz, but beyond a certain point its just plain bad manners. Just as loudly announcing check in the playing hall is considered rude, as it is understood that a tournament player should recognise when his King is attacked. True, much of the etiquette in chess is unwritten, but still as a young player coming up I learned such codes of behaviour very quickly. I suspect that Glas did not even bother to go through the entire game as it is admittedly quite long and dull. For those that use Chessbase, here is a tip that may assist you on those occassions when one would like to review a game quickly: You can copy and paste pgn's from any source directly into chessbase by the following simple procedure: 1. Copy the said pgn 2. Open a board window in Chessbase 3. Hit Control V and voila, you can quickly play through the pgn file. No charge. Toppy Actually, I took it as a given that he had absolutely no chance - hence my not playing through the game. (I use the free program, ChessDB.) I recall reading about a similar incident when Korchnoi was giving a simul, where the final opponent continued playing, trying to out-manoeuvre the GM in a endgame where it was, in fact, impossible for him to circumvent the defensive "wall" Korchnoi had erected . Again, absolutely no hope of doing so... Nevertheless, the amateur continued playing until asked to accept the draw(!) by the organizers, as Korchnoi needed to leave the event by a certain time! [Oh, by the way, my name isn't actually "Dragan Glas" - that's Irish for "Green Dragon". ] Kindest regards, Dragan Glas


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Antillian God Member Offline Brilliance without dazzle! Posts: 1757 Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #20 - 01/11/09 at 00:06:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dragan Glas wrote on 01/10/09 at 22:47:06: I believe there's a saying: "Nobody won anything by resigning" In this case, he had no winning chances. Perhaps he was hoping for stalemate, so you might want to append to that "...and nobody drew anything by resigning either" All jokes aside though, I agree it was poor sportsmanship.

	"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #19 - 01/10/09 at 23:38:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dragan Glas wrote on 01/10/09 at 22:47:06: Greetings, I believe there's a saying: "Nobody won anything by resigning!" Psychological warfare - looks like it got to you TopNotch - sounds like Chess for Tigers! Kindest regards, Dragan Glas Perhaps so, but you won't benefit from many post mortems that way. Playing on in hopeless positions and/or till mate maybe beneficial for beginners or in blitz, but beyond a certain point its just plain bad manners. Just as loudly announcing check in the playing hall is considered rude, as it is understood that a tournament player should recognise when his King is attacked. True, much of the etiquette in chess is unwritten, but still as a young player coming up I learned such codes of behaviour very quickly. I suspect that Glas did not even bother to go through the entire game as it is admittedly quite long and dull. For those that use Chessbase, here is a tip that may assist you on those occassions when one would like to review a game quickly: You can copy and paste pgn's from any source directly into chessbase by the following simple procedure: 1. Copy the said pgn 2. Open a board window in Chessbase 3. Hit Control V and voila, you can quickly play through the pgn file. No charge. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Dragan Glas Senior Member Offline "If I, like Solomon, ... could have my wish - " Posts: 424 Location: Ireland Joined: 06/25/06 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #18 - 01/10/09 at 22:47:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Greetings, I believe there's a saying: "Nobody won anything by resigning!" Psychological warfare - looks like it got to you TopNotch - sounds like Chess for Tigers! Kindest regards, Dragan Glas


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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #17 - 01/10/09 at 21:41:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	To play devil's advocate, a number of chess books argue that it's never too late to resign. I wonder how many mediocre players take that advice a little too literally...

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #16 - 01/10/09 at 20:15:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	chk wrote on 01/09/09 at 13:05:52: IM Christoph Wisnewski wrote on 01/08/09 at 09:18:44: and this someone chose to prolong the game unnecessarily (e.g. playing on in positions where there was absolutely no danger for me of not winning) I still regard this as a bit of a grey area, e.g. you "absolutely winning" could be based on subjective reasons or the person opposite to you may simply not understand due to lack of chess knowledge that "there were absolutely no danger for you of not winning". Still in principle, you should be both right in 90% of the cases. I like post mortems too, mainly because a chess game is sometimes more about what you don't actually get to see played on the board. Well lets take a look at a recent example of mine shall we: Rude Dude - TopNotch [B73] National Championship, 2008 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be2 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Be3 Nc6 9.f4 Qb6 10.e5 dxe5 11.fxe5 Nxe5 12.Nf5 Qxb2 13.Nxe7+ Kh8 14.Bd4 Qb4 15.Bxe5 Qxe7 16.Qd4 Nh5 17.Bxg7+ Nxg7 18.Bc4 Be6 19.Bxe6 fxe6 20.Rxf8+ Rxf8 21.Qxa7 Qf6 22.Qe3 Nf5 23.Qe1 Qd4+ 24.Kh1 Ne3 25.Ne2 Qe4 26.Qc3+ Kg8 27.Rg1 Ng4 28.h3 Nf2+ 29.Kh2 Qxe2 30.Re1 Qa6 31.Qe3 Qxa2 32.Re2 Nd1 33.Qd2 Qd5 34.Qe1 Qd6+ 35.Kh1 Qd4 36.Rxe6 Nf2+ 37.Kh2 Qf4+ 38.Kg1 Qg3 39.Re3 Nxh3+ 40.Kh1 Qxe1+ 41.Rxe1 Nf2+ 42.Kg1 Ng4 43.Re4 h5 44.Rb4 Rf7 45.Rb6 Kg7 46.g3 Rc7 47.c3 Kh6 48.Kg2 Ne3+ 49.Kh3 Nd5 50.Rb2 Nxc3 51.g4 hxg4+ 52.Kxg4 b5 53.Kf4 b4 54.Ke5 Rc4 55.Kf6 Rf4+ 56.Ke5 g5 57.Rh2+ Rh4 58.Rd2 Re4+ 59.Kf5 Rf4+ 60.Ke5 Kh5 61.Rd8 Kg4 62.Rg8 Nd1 63.Rd8 Nf2 64.Rb8 Kf3 65.Kd5 g4 66.Kc5 g3 67.Rb7 g2 68.Rxb4 Rxb4 69.Kxb4 g1Q 70.Kc4 Qd1 71.Kc3 Qd5 72.Kb4 Qc6 73.Ka5 Qb7 74.Ka4 Nd3 75.Ka5 Kg2 76.Ka4 Qb4 Mate So was I wrong to feel insulted and refuse a postmortem with this guy. Surely he had to be aware of the hopelessness of the situation somewhere between losing a piece for nothing on move 29 and mate on move 76. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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trw God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1414 Joined: 05/06/08 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #15 - 01/10/09 at 18:18:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Lack of respect for others is disgusting and yet somehow very common in the chess arena. I can't count the number of times I have seen pure rudeness at the chess board. My policy is just to ignore these people entirely.


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chk God Member Offline a pawn is a pawn Posts: 1063 Location: Athens Joined: 10/26/06 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #14 - 01/09/09 at 13:05:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	IM Christoph Wisnewski wrote on 01/08/09 at 09:18:44: and this someone chose to prolong the game unnecessarily (e.g. playing on in positions where there was absolutely no danger for me of not winning) I still regard this as a bit of a grey area, e.g. you "absolutely winning" could be based on subjective reasons or the person opposite to you may simply not understand due to lack of chess knowledge that "there were absolutely no danger for you of not winning". Still in principle, you should be both right in 90% of the cases. I like post mortems too, mainly because a chess game is sometimes more about what you don't actually get to see played on the board.

	"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #13 - 01/09/09 at 02:16:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	IM Christoph Wisnewski wrote on 01/08/09 at 09:18:44: chk wrote on 01/07/09 at 13:25:59: I have sort of the opposite problem: playing against stronger opposition, lose (usually interesting games) and the winner refrains from a post mortem. For me, it depends how the game eventually ended; if I win against someone, and this someone chose to prolong the game unnecessarily (e.g. playing on in positions where there was absolutely no danger for me of not winning), I simply subtract the time spent from a possible post mortem analysis. Should that be more than an hour, there will be no post mortem at all. This is my policy as well. I even had an opponent on two separate occassions play on till mate with King and Queen, it was amusing the first time around but not the second. At an Olympiad, a teammate of mine after being routed in a miniature by his GM opponent suggested a postmortem, to which the GM arrogantly replied "What for? There was not enough of a game to analyse". Over the years I discovered that generally speaking people don't mind or take seriously blowhards or braggarts, who more often than not tend not to be able to back up their delusions of grandeur over the board. However the braggarts that can back their claims are often despised more than respected. Hikaru Nakamura aka Smallville on the ICC seems to be a good case in point. Personally I love postmortems quite a bit, as they serve not only to learn more about the game but also the opponents character, and can be an effective way to socialise and forge friendships. Tops

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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drkodos God Member Offline I see....stars. Posts: 778 Location: Jupiter, and beyond Joined: 03/29/07	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #12 - 01/08/09 at 23:43:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stigma wrote on 01/08/09 at 22:42:38: drkodos wrote on 01/08/09 at 21:59:44: If one is an "upstart" both at and away from the board, then rating and age are irrelevant. Sometimes I will even refuse to play the knuckleheads, allowing them a full point from having scored the forfeit victory, but denied them the chance of having played me. One cannot claim to have beaten one they have never played. And yes, of course, it is because I am scared I will lose. Seriously? Such cowardly behavior doesn't fit well with the self-assured yet ironic image you project here on this forum. I've heard that byes (even in the middle of tournaments) are strangely accepted in the U.S. In most of the tournaments I play, intentionally not showing up for a round would get you kicked out of the tournament, and on repeated offense banned from future tournaments (for a limited time) as well! No, not seriously. Yes, seriously I would choose to forfeit and not play a punk. It has nothing to do with being scared. It has everything to do with denying them the pleasure/torture of playing me. Yes, I have been kicked out of several tournaments, but with this caveat: I tell the TD I am withdrawing, and I tell them why. But, I wait until the "upstart" loses his opportunity to get paired against a live player that round. This potentially hurts them in several ways, (psychically and mentally), and squirrels with their tie-breaks as the point against me is usually now worth much less than had they actually defeated me. One day, if they eventually mature and become sagacious, they may realize and learn. If not, still no worries for me. Winning and losing lost significance for me more than 20 years ago, mate. For me, it's more about the connections and ideas we have as human beings. All I do is use the GIGO method and treat people with the same attitude they give me, only AMPLIFIED !! I go to eleven. I'm not sure I care anymore what too many think of me or my actions. They are all legal. Depending on the given situation, they may even be ethical. When you hit your sixth or seventh decade on the rock, you might understand.... PS: drkodos is not a real person. He is a figment of your imagination. Smoke....disolving into the ether.

	I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3277 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #11 - 01/08/09 at 22:42:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	drkodos wrote on 01/08/09 at 21:59:44: If one is an "upstart" both at and away from the board, then rating and age are irrelevant. Sometimes I will even refuse to play the knuckleheads, allowing them a full point from having scored the forfeit victory, but denied them the chance of having played me. One cannot claim to have beaten one they have never played. And yes, of course, it is because I am scared I will lose. Seriously? Such cowardly behavior doesn't fit well with the self-assured yet ironic image you project here on this forum. I've heard that byes (even in the middle of tournaments) are strangely accepted in the U.S. In most of the tournaments I play, intentionally not showing up for a round would get you kicked out of the tournament, and on repeated offense banned from future tournaments (for a limited time) as well!

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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drkodos God Member Offline I see....stars. Posts: 778 Location: Jupiter, and beyond Joined: 03/29/07	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #10 - 01/08/09 at 21:59:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Antillian wrote on 12/23/08 at 18:56:13: Perhaps these folks you beat are just sore losers. Or perhaps you have a role in how they react to. Only you can say for sure. But ask yourself, how graceful are you when you win? One thing I have found as a rapidly improving junior (seems like decades ago) was that many of older folks at the chess club who had been playing chess for donkey years at the same level had a hard time dealing with young boys barely out of diapers and still dressed in khaki shirts and short pants running cycles around them in chess. Some dealt with it better than others. Some quit playing. Some dealt with it gracefully. But it has been my experience that older folks who have been playing for a while often can't come to terms with the young "up-starts". There may be nothing you can do about it. But you should look in the mirror still and first ask yourself what attitude do you yourself portray when you win. Remember, it sometimes takes more grace to be a winner than to be a loser. As an older person that cannot deal too well with "young upstarts" I can say it has everything to do with attitude and nothing at all to do with strength or results. A 13 year old rated 2170 who crushes me in my pet line is not an upstart to me unless he acts like a spoiled brat. And, I agree wholly that it takes more energy and effort to be graceful when winning than most people realize. I also use this to give many the benefit of the doubt, thinking that the game has drained them of their energies to reamin graceful, if they are mostly "good folk" when not at the board. If one is an "upstart" both at and away from the board, then rating and age are irrelevant. Sometimes I will even refuse to play the knuckleheads, allowing them a full point from having scored the forfeit victory, but denied them the chance of having played me. One cannot claim to have beaten one they have never played. And yes, of course, it is because I am scared I will lose.

	I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Dragan Glas Senior Member Offline "If I, like Solomon, ... could have my wish - " Posts: 424 Location: Ireland Joined: 06/25/06 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #9 - 01/08/09 at 21:30:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Greetings, @cyronix Perhaps if you asked him from where did he get the idea for the bishop move. By that, I don't mean "Where the @&%$ did you get the idea that that was the right move!?" If you ask as if it might be the latest TN from NIC or SOS that he's misplayed and in which you're interested... Also, just try and "hang out" with those whom you consider to be civil - assuming that you don't do so in a way that could be interpreted as being stand-offish and superior. Markovich's point about finding better answers to "super-solid" play is very true. @Antillian I know what you mean! Many years ago, when I was 30 years of age, a kid of 12 came into our club in Dublin with his dad. I played a few games against him and managed to win one or two games - before getting tactically wiped off the board in the rest! For a Dragon player to have that done to you ... boy, did that make me feel old*!! Now, he's one of our leading IMs - Mark Quinn. Kindest regards, Dragan Glas


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chk God Member Offline a pawn is a pawn Posts: 1063 Location: Athens Joined: 10/26/06 Gender:	Re: lack of respect among chess players Reply #8 - 01/08/09 at 11:31:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	This is understandable. I like myself good manners OTB. But this is also a bit of a grey area don't you think? Many times you fight on because you sincerely believe there is sth to gain from the position at hand. Of course your beliefs may be wrong due to lack of understanding. However, I agree with you 100% when it comes to deliberate maltreatment of the game..

	"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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