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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Time Trouble Help (Read 26262 times)
MNb
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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #29 - 12/29/08 at 23:51:45
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Miki wrote on 12/26/08 at 15:56:22:
I think it's completely wrong to compare my time to that of my opponent's and try to follow him.

Smiley
I assume incorrect and wrong have two different meanings. My mistake, English is not my native language.
  

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Miki
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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #28 - 12/29/08 at 19:38:47
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MNb wrote on 12/29/08 at 19:22:29:

Look, you're a nice guy really, while I'm not and I'm running out of patience. For the third time, spend as much time in the opening as you prefer, we live in a free world. My point is you can't lift your own experience to a general level and back this up with ad hoc arguments, false choices and non-sequiturs. And don't tell me I can't do this either, because I don't use such logic. Lips Sealed

Ok, now I am the one giving general statements that are supposed to work for anyone?  Grin
I never said your philosophy of time management was incorrect, I accept different opinions (although not agreeing with them), while you were the one to call me an EXCEPTION.
  
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Miki
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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #27 - 12/29/08 at 19:30:09
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MNb wrote on 12/29/08 at 19:22:29:

Just to remind you that my guidelines were meant for someone who asked how to get rid of his timetrouble. You don't want to, but that does not mean this statement is proven correct after giving three or four examples. So the Anand-Karpov example is relevant for Gerry, your examples are not.

Next time you might want to quote the person you are referring to, and not me.  Wink
  
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MNb
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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #26 - 12/29/08 at 19:22:29
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Shit, clicked Modify iso Quote. Ah well, it doesn't really matter. The quote in Miki's next post is correct. The debate is descending on level and growing on boredom.
« Last Edit: 12/29/08 at 23:55:46 by MNb »  

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HgMan
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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #25 - 12/29/08 at 18:38:39
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For some reason, this thread took me a lot longer to read than usual.  And my tea got cold...    Grin
  

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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #24 - 12/29/08 at 16:18:26
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Miki wrote on 12/29/08 at 12:08:18:

While these tiny differences and nuances might seem completely irrelevant and unimportant to you, they obviously do matter. Higher the level of play, more important it becomes. Otherwise all top players would play their openings with lighting speed (because they surely do know their stuff). And that's definitely not the case.


To my knowledge most top players DO play their opening moves fast - that was at least my impression following a lot of games during the chess olympics in Dresden.

Play slows down slightly when it comes to deciding on a specific line or variation. By then the top GM surely aren´t out of book. I guess they check their lines or the preferred lines of the opponent in a certain variation. An issue might be as well to hide how far the preparation has got.

The articles in Chesscafe mentioned above have been helpful for me. In my games I try to check the remaining time per move of a game. If I reach a non-critical position that helps me to decide on a move faster.

On the otherhand I don´t feel bad about spending 30 minutes for an important move early in the game, because I know I can handle my time budget afterwards.
  

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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #23 - 12/29/08 at 12:08:18
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winawer77 wrote on 12/29/08 at 11:27:28:

I firmly believe that time trouble is caused by indecisiveness as least as much as it is by genuinely analysing all the possibilities

Exactly! Indecisiveness between few moves that are all objectively good but trying to find the one that best fits your needs. (taking into account your and your opponent's strengths and weaknesses, also your desired result-whether you need a win or draw etc.)

While these tiny differences and nuances might seem completely irrelevant and unimportant to you, they obviously do matter. Higher the level of play, more important it becomes. Otherwise all top players would play their openings with lighting speed (because they surely do know their stuff). And that's definitely not the case.
  
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Miki
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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #22 - 12/29/08 at 12:00:06
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MNb wrote on 12/29/08 at 02:36:06:

Your argument sounds nice, but is in fact just another self-justification. (Look! Here is one strong GM who does the same as me! Forget about all the others who don't!)

Just to remind you that you were the first to base your arguments on a single chess game between Anand and Karpov where time trouble turned out to be fatal. I simply responed with 3 completely opposite examples. (Ivanchuk being the most prominent one)

But as you have also realized by now - to each it's own...
  
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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #21 - 12/29/08 at 11:27:28
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I agree completely with MNb. As a frequent sufferer of time trouble I know exactly what it is like. Forty good moves played at a reasonable pace will beat 30 perfect moves, followed by 10 bad ones. The difference between winning/losing/drawing in chess is finely balanced - no matter how good your position is it only takes one really bad move to undo all the good work. This is more likely to happen when short of time.

I firmly believe that time trouble is caused by indecisiveness as least as much as it is by genuinely analysing all the possibilities. I'd imagine that the first 5-10 mins thinking will reveal 90% of what is relevant. Anything else will not be as productive. Its the law of diminishing returns.

Check out these, for more food for thought - 

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman61.pdf
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman93.pdf

  
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MNb
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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #20 - 12/29/08 at 02:36:06
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Miki wrote on 12/28/08 at 12:49:47:

Karpov is not chess machine. I could, as well, list hundreds of games where his strategy and deep opening plans led to minute advantages which he was able to turn into the victory. Had he played superficial developing moves I doubt he would be able to achieve such microscopic long-term advantages from the opening.


It might interest you that in his best years - ie 1975-85 - Karpov never suffered from time trouble and played the opening rather quickly - not hastily, just with a sound pace. Same for Kortchnoi. In fact Karpov's timetrouble worsened while his rating dropped. Now I do know enough of statistics not to conclude a direct relation between the two, they might have a common cause like age. But no way Karpov is an argument for your time-management.
I would not be surprised if it turns to be the same for your other three examples. If we take all top-level games of the last 40 years in which only one player was in time trouble I suspect highly that the one in time trouble scores significantly lower than expected from ELO-ratings.
Moreover there is a whole list of top-players (among them the clear majority of WCh's) who sytemetically try to inflict time trouble on their opponents as part of their winning strategies.
Your argument sounds nice, but is in fact just another self-justification. (Look! Here is one strong GM who does the same as me! Forget about all the others who don't!)

Look, I don't want to convert you. If you enjoy deep sea diving, you have my blessings. My guidelines were an answer to Gerry's initial post. Exceptions and special cases like you guys bring up again and again do not provide arguments against these guidelines. You are the exception yourself and that's completely allright with me. Have fun!
  

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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #19 - 12/28/08 at 12:49:47
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MNb wrote on 12/27/08 at 21:45:23:
And they quite often regret it a later stage. There is a game Anand-Karpov, in which Black followed that procedure. When Anand decided to complicate and went for a sac on h7 Karpov wasn't able to cope with all the lines. If Karpov had had even 15 minutes more - those 15 minutes he spend the way you described - he probably had found the road to the draw.

Karpov is not chess machine. I could, as well, list hundreds of games where his strategy and deep opening plans led to minute advantages which he was able to turn into the victory. Had he played superficial developing moves I doubt he would be able to achieve such microscopic long-term advantages from the opening.

Same goes for Ivanchuk, for example. In spite of being one of the best prepared players he's known for his HORRIBLE time troubles (mostly caused by spending most of his time on the opening phase), and while it sometimes cost him, it obviously paid off much more often. Same goes for let's say Korchnoi, Sutovsky, Morozevich and many other (usually very creative) players...

Of course, I could also list those who play the openings with a comp-like speed and are also successful players, my point is only that you can't be so exclusive by saying that "deep thinkers" are unnecessarily wasting their time. You can quote whichever chess manul you want but in practice things are not so easy to generalize.
To each it's own, and the variety of styles of world's top chess players are the best proof for that.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #18 - 12/27/08 at 22:32:42
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MNb wrote on 12/27/08 at 21:45:23:

To Stigma: you will have serious problems with a player like me - I  spend less time on the opening than you and still get a reasonable position. That's why you don't have an answer to the time management I described above.
Your argument is circular. You spend a lot of time the first half of the game because that's were you're able to outplay your opponent. But your play in the other stages might improve if you save more time for them.

Right, but it doesn't automatically follow that playing the opening more superficially brings better results. I like my "deep" opening play and the good positions it brings me, so instead of any radical change there I would rather train to think generally faster in all phases - if I can summon the time and willpower required. 

Until that happens I will start every game with as good play as I'm capable of, and take some nerve-wracking time troubles (which I also do special training for) in the bargain, rather than settle for boring mediocrity throughout.
MNb wrote on 12/27/08 at 21:45:23:

So basically - and again I am not the first to notice - it's a matter of confidence. You guys are not too confident in the opening - Miki wants to reach certain positions and avoid others - and after the game, when you have ruined a good position, you have the nice excuse of time trouble.

I don't think opening confidence is the problem. I play on the patzer level where people don't know lots of theory (i.e. below 2300) and most of my long thinks in the opening come because my opponent knows even less about the opening than I do and has left known lines early on. Then naturally I want to think deeply and find the reason why his line is not recommended - if there is one. 

I actually tried to force myself to use at most 10 minutes for the first 10 moves, but I gave it up as unrealistic because opponents below 2000 often couldn't play known theory for even 10 moves!
  

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MNb
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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #17 - 12/27/08 at 21:45:23
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And they quite often regret it a later stage. There is a game Anand-Karpov, in which Black followed that procedure. When Anand decided to complicate and went for a sac on h7 Karpov wasn't able to cope with all the lines. If Karpov had had even 15 minutes more - those 15 minutes he spend the way you described - he probably had found the road to the draw.

Miki wrote on 12/27/08 at 20:34:55:
 
While it might superficially seem that I give my openings much more attention, this is only partly correct. My goal is to achieve such position from the opening which will result in a middlegame that fits best to my style of play.  So, my thinking over seemingly unimportant opening nuances has important implications on the resulting middlegame (or sometimes even endgame(!) if you consider pawn structures and other long-term things relevant to the endgame).
There usually are at least 2-3 playable and perfectly fine moves (sometimes even more, depending on the opening) at the beginning of the chess game (till the middlegame), and while I could play any of those in no time, my goal is to play the moves which are most likely to lead to the positions which I am most comfortable with and which fit my style. This will also enable me to play faster in the middlegame because I will already have lots of the plans worked out. (while those who routinely developed their pieces will only now start to really think, and it might already be a bit too late)


Again - if these choices pop up in the opening they should have been part of your preparation. The second line is somewhat false thinking. It's very well known that visualization becomes more difficult when the lines are broader and deeper. So planning goes faster when you postpone it even 2 or 3 moves. And very often in the opening it's possible to postpone without any cost by playing a useful move that leaves all the choices open.

Anyhow, I don't think advise of people like Fischer, Euwe Suetin and Kotov (some of the guru's of my old days are to be neglected lightheartedly with "won't work for me". That is just another form of self-justification.

To Stigma: you will have serious problems with a player like me - I  spend less time on the opening than you and still get a reasonable position. That's why you don't have an answer to the time management I described above.
Your argument is circular. You spend a lot of time the first half of the game because that's were you're able to outplay your opponent. But your play in the other stages might improve if you save more time for them. So basically - and again I am not the first to notice - it's a matter of confidence. You guys are not too confident in the opening - Miki wants to reach certain positions and avoid others - and after the game, when you have ruined a good position, you have the nice excuse of time trouble. Very selfsatisfactory. But I maintain this way you don't make the best of your talents. Now I am on a slippery slope, because neither do I. So if you enjoy deep seadiving in the opening, go ahead. But remember: timetrouble is a choice and not a necessary evil and certainly no excuse for a loss.
For those who don't like timetrouble and generally want to avoid it my guidelines still stand.  Lips Sealed (on this subject)
  

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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #16 - 12/27/08 at 20:34:55
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MNb wrote on 12/27/08 at 16:18:19:
Miki wrote on 12/26/08 at 23:00:24:
And if I had to choose between playing strong (and spending lots of time on only seemingly unimportant nuances) or routinely playing out my moves just to keep my clock high I would always choose the first option.


My point is that one should avoid such choices. You neglect this, which seems to be a common sophism for time trouble addicts. Your time management does not necessarily mean a huge disadvantage, especially if you're a time trouble beast. But it still means that you give the opening more attention than the middle game and endgame and that certainly causes a lack of balance in your play. No smart logic can argue against this.

Well, obviously I don't spend that much time each and every time, and of course that I'd rather find satisfactory moves as fast as possible. 
While it might superficially seem that I give my openings much more attention, this is only partly correct. My goal is to achieve such position from the opening which will result in a middlegame that fits best to my style of play.  So, my thinking over seemingly unimportant opening nuances has important implications on the resulting middlegame (or sometimes even endgame(!) if you consider pawn structures and other long-term things relevant to the endgame).
There usually are at least 2-3 playable and perfectly fine moves (sometimes even more, depending on the opening) at the beginning of the chess game (till the middlegame), and while I could play any of those in no time, my goal is to play the moves which are most likely to lead to the positions which I am most comfortable with and which fit my style. This will also enable me to play faster in the middlegame because I will already have lots of the plans worked out. (while those who routinely developed their pieces will only now start to really think, and it might already be a bit too late)

MNb wrote on 12/27/08 at 16:18:19:

Miki wrote on 12/26/08 at 23:00:24:

And it does not have to do with my opening preparation, I mean quite a few of my opponents don't even follow theory as deep as I have learned it - in that case it's even more important to think hard from the very beginning.


This suggests you learn your opening theory the wrong way - namely by heart. If you have prepared your openings well you even understand where your pieces have to go the etc. the first 15 moves or so if your opponents deviate. One should not figure out such things behind the board.
In the case one really gets caught in unknown theory - something that has happened very rarely to me last 25 years, despite of my bad memory - one can fall back on the general recipe, something I gave in my previous post: activate your pieces, castle, place one or two pawns in the centre, in short play according to elementary opening principles. If one also watches out for some tactics there is no need for excessive timespending (wasting?!) in the opening.

In my early chess days I used to play London system with quite a success. And while I knew lots of theory and understood all typical plans that are to be considered I have encountered so many set-ups that are not covered in the books (mostly because black players rarely know how to deal with London, Trompowsky etc., concentrating more on mainstream openings). Of course, I would have to rely on general principles and ideas from London but that was not always possible. Sometimes even the tiniest change in my opponent's setup would have made a great difference.

MNb wrote on 12/27/08 at 16:18:19:

Btw all these thoughts are not mine. They stem from all kinds of chess manuals, some of them several decades old.

Ok, so you are telling me that you are implementing other people's thoughts in your games. If it works for you, great. But remember, not all "chess manuals" offer sound advices.
Btw, if you ever followed a live game between 2 strong players you would see that their thinking processes are much more unpredictable and random then they teach you in those manuals.
I have very often seen GM's spend 15-20 minutes (sometimes even more) on a single opening move. And it's not because they don't know the theory (they know it better then any of us), it's because they try to visualize all the potential options and arising middlegames (or even endgames). They also take into consideration their opponent and their style and try to come up with the move that is not only routinely good but also as unpleasant as possible for their opponent. (And even that is not all to consider during the opening phase, there are other factors like for example, are you playing for a win or for a draw etc., etc.)
  
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Re: Time Trouble Help
Reply #15 - 12/27/08 at 19:07:06
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MNb wrote on 12/27/08 at 16:18:19:

My point is that one should avoid such choices. You neglect this, which seems to be a common sophism for time trouble addicts. Your time management does not necessarily mean a huge disadvantage, especially if you're a time trouble beast. But it still means that you give the opening more attention than the middle game and endgame and that certainly causes a lack of balance in your play. No smart logic can argue against this.
Anyhow, against opponents that apply your time management I apply mine: I make sure I have 5-10 minutes more left on the clock, use your time to get into the position, will complicate around move 30 and 9 times out of 10 will reap the fruits in the form of some decisive tactics - assuming that we are of about equal strength. So I wish you good luck with your satisfactory position around move 20 - I rather have the win.

I think you must realize that for players like myself and (I assume) Miki, outplaying opponents who don't think very hard in the opening and early middlegame is our main strength and a common way to win games! Even though some of those winning positions will be ruined by time trouble, this is not simply solved by playing quickly early on. Getting rid of one problem and at the same time losing my greatest strength sounds like a very unsatisfactory solution.

I think the only real cure for time trouble is to work on all-round greater decision making speed. This can involve tough calculation training, improving physical stamina, using the opponent's time better, understanding the opening better (as you rightly pointed out), building up one's store of middlegame patterns etc. But ideally it should not be necessary to take a more superficial approach.

This is all hard work, so it's not surprising that many time trouble addicts have to battle with this devil throughout their carreers.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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