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Re: Chigorin Defence vs Avrukh Repertoire
Reply #6 - 01/09/09 at 09:08:13
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tipau wrote on 01/08/09 at 20:43:19:


So I've mostly focused on 3...dxc4. Now 4.Nf3 (I'll have to study 4.d5!? as well now of course...) 4...Nf6

Does anyone have any thoughts on this line?



Both d5 and 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.d5 Lead to a very interesting piece sacrifice.
In the former case (4.d5) it seems not good enough, in the later case (with Nf3 Nf6 included) it seems very very interesting and the best for white is to reject the offer, and the endgame you have is very interesting.

3...e5 may be interesting, but i would not bet on it Smiley
  
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Re: Chigorin Defence vs Avrukh Repertoire
Reply #5 - 01/09/09 at 00:02:16
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Greetings,

Oops! :[

Nevertheless, Morozevich also indicates that the move ..., e5 is the way to go following the exchange on d5.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Chigorin Defence vs Avrukh Repertoire
Reply #4 - 01/08/09 at 23:16:06
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Thanks for the quick responses

@realpolitik
in the pawn sac line with e5 Avrukh actually uses the Spanton game as his main line: 5...e5 6.dxe5 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nxc3 8.bxc3 Bc5 (this much is given by Bronznik and Wisnewski claiming compensation) 9.Bf4 0-0 10.e3 Qe7 11.Be2 Bg4 12.0-0 h6 13.Qc2 Rfe8 14.Rfd1 Martyns - Spanton, LSS 2006
With regards to the Bf5 lines I think he does dismiss them comprehensively, which is why I think it's necessary to focus on 3...dxc4

@TN
Thanks for copying across the interesting post. None of the points are relevant to this exact line, but very interesting nevertheless.

I'd looked at 9.b4!? a little already. 
After 9...e6 (9...g5 10.Bg3 e6 is also possible when 11.bxa5 transposes) 10.bxa5 (10.Bxf6 Qxf6 11.e5 Qd8 12.bxa5 Bb4 13.Rc1 exd5 I like Black's pawn mass) 10...g5 11.Bg3 (11.Nxg5!? hxg5 12.Bxg5 is also interesting) 11...Bb4 12.Be5 Nxe4! 13.Qc2 exd5 with a big mess

After 9.Ne5 the computer likes 9...g5 (9...g6 is possible) 10.Bg3 Bg7 for Black, I'm sure White has compensation with 11.h4, but Black is certainly playable

@ Dragan Glas
I already own Morozevich & Barsky's Chigorin book. Wouldn't be much of a Chigorin fan if I didn't would I?

Not really sure what the relevance of your quote is. The line being discussed is 3.Nc3 not 3.cxd5...
  
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Re: Chigorin Defence vs Avrukh Repertoire
Reply #3 - 01/08/09 at 22:21:04
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Greetings,

tipau
Not being myself familiar with the Chigorin's themes, I went looking for information and found a review of The Chigorin Defence According to Morozevich published in 2007.

Note this particular quote from the Chapter 1 given by Silman:

Quote:
In Chapter One, Section A (Defending and Developing: 4.Nf3), he looks at 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.Nf3 and immediately makes it clear that Black must play 4...e5 since moves like 4...Bg4 and 4...Nf6 don't get the job done. The first game is the heavyweight battle Steinitz - Chigorin, Vienna 1898 (4...e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Bg4, etc.). Many notes and modern game references act as welcomed filler, and when the end comes (in favor of Steinitz) we are a bit confused since it seemed that White had all the fun. But then comes salvation, named A Closer Look. He says, "Steinitz conducted the game very strongly and logically, and he would have retained the better chances even in the event of Black's correct response on the 17th move. An improvement on Chigorin's play must evidently be sought at an earlier stage of the game. We suggest studying 7...Nge7!? (instead of 7...Bg4)." There follows a page of detailed analysis showing how Black would be fine with 7...Nge7. Of course, many other games follow, rounding out our understanding of how Black should deal with 4.Nf3.

It may be an idea to add this to your Chigorin library!? Wink

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Chigorin Defence vs Avrukh Repertoire
Reply #2 - 01/08/09 at 21:18:01
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I located the following post from the Grandmaster Repertoire: 1.d4 Volume 1 thread that offers some improvements for both sides:

MilenPetrov wrote on 01/03/09 at 23:07:00:
Hello,
during the Christmas holidays I decided to take a deeper look on the book. I had an idea to create something like a repertoire based on the book (even I rarely play 1.d4 in my corr. games). So I started with the Chapter on Chigorin Defence (Chapter 26 in the book), which is somehow popular in a correspondence tournaments at IECG and at club level tournaments in my city. Here is the summary of the chapter - there are about 40 games mentioned in the chapter and seems that again we have a lack of corr. games (I already complained about this in my opininions on other books, especialy those from Chess Stars). I managed to find only 2, if LSS means LSS chess server (the server ran by IECG). There are 11 novelties in the chapter marked with the well known symbol 'N'. Quite a high number - almost one per page. Smiley
And below are my findings:
  • Line C (page 395) - final position. In the book it is mentioned that the position arose in the game Lazarev-Skembris (which is of course true), but after checking it I found that also the game Dreev-Zviagintsev, 1997 reached that position (even it arose from NID). I think that the assessment is based on the latter game. Maybe the author forgot to mention that this kind of positions could be reached also from Nimzo Indian move order. He only mentions that this is a worse redaction of Ragozin variation.
  • Line D1 (page 396) - 6.e4, which is mentioned as a TN is already played in the game C.Hansen-S.B.Hansen, 2002 and the latter game is commented by Dautov in Mega and CBM.  Undecided
  • Line D2 (page 399) - instead of 14.h3 given by the author I think that 14.d5 deserves serious attention. My short analysis shows that White has better prospects comparing to the text move. But I am not a GM. Would be interested to hear opinions on this idea.
  • Line D3 (page 401) - the line with 7.d5 Na5 is given by Ftacnik in his comments on the game Milov-Morozevich, Tilburg 1994 and this is not mentioned in the book. I think that instead of 8...c6, 8...b5 or even 8...g5 deserve serious attention. I made some analysis and latter seems the best in the position. Again I am curious to hear your opinions.
  • Line D3 (page 400) - the move 8.gxf3 marked as a novelty is already played in the game Hucks-Dammkoehler, corr IECG, 1995. In fact GM Avrukh's 9.Bg3 is the novelty. The before-mentioned game continued 9.Qd4.

Anyway I like the book and I recommend it to every chess player. There are a lot of interesting findings and ideas. Of course there is no prefect books. I will continue to build up my repertoire (not only white's) based on the book and I will share my findings here if the publishers and authors do not have any objections.
My overal assessment of the book is 8.5/10.

Regards
Milen Petrov
FIDE IA
IECG IM


Unfortunately I don't have time to check your analyses now, but Avrukh thinks that White has a few attractive alternatives, although he doesn't give any examples. I would suggest 9.b4!? (I quite like this idea) and 9.Ne5 (9...e6 10.Qf3 is complicated but White's initiative seems more potent than my computer suggests).


  
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Re: Chigorin Defence vs Avrukh Repertoire
Reply #1 - 01/08/09 at 21:11:06
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hi tipau, i was a fan of the nf6 lines aswell but i think that nf3 does pose black problems. i once asked gm lalic about this line after playing the chig against him and he felt the pawn sac e5 after nf3 gives black sufficient chances and indeed this is what wisnewski recommends but i am not sure i fully trust it. there is a correspondence game posted by tim spanton somewhere on this forum that looks quite good for white and fritz certainly favours white. it is possible that a well prepared black player might do ok here. i have had a quick look through avrukhs book, does he comprehensively dismiss the bf5 lines?? i should add that i dont own avrukhs book but even if Nf6 doesnt work it isnt a total disaster for chig players as there is still dc
  
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Chigorin Defence vs Avrukh Repertoire
01/08/09 at 20:43:19
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While working though the recent book Grandmaster Repertoire 1.d4 Volume 1, from quality chess, I've been having mixed feelings. On one hand I think the book is brilliant and I'm going to use a lot of the lines myself (previously being a predominantly 1.e4 player), but on the other I'm wondering what on earth I'm going to do if my next White opponent follows its recommendations...

Being a fan of the Chigorin defence (1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6) I've been working a lot on that particular chapter and the coverage is very good. I usually play the move order 3.Nc3 Nf6 (recommended by Wisnewski and given as a valid alternative to the main line by Bronznik) but 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3! does seem very strong and I can't find any line I'm happy with there now Sad 

So I've mostly focused on 3...dxc4. Now 4.Nf3 (I'll have to study 4.d5!? as well now of course...) 4...Nf6 5.Bg5 h6 (is 5...Qd6 a reasonable possibility? I've never thought about it but my Fritz likes it and I can't see anything obviously wrong) 6.Bh4 a6 7.e4 b5 (7...Bg4 is taken as the main line, but I can't find a line I'm happy with there) 8.d5 Na5 9.e5 and in this position Avrukh analyses 9...g5 (10.Bg3 Nh5 11.e6!) and 9...b4 concluding (correctly as far as I can tell) White is better in both cases. The move I'm wondering about is 9...Nh5 immediately? The position just seems very messy and complicated. White has various ways to make use of the discovered attack on the h5 knight, which usually moves to f4 and pressures d5. Originally my computer really liked White, but after a few moves it comes around to Black's cause..

A few sample lines:

9...Nh5

i) 10.e6 Qd6! (otherwise Ne5) 11.Ne4 (11.Nd4 Nf4 or 11...Qe5+ 12.Be2 Nf4) 11...Qf4 (11...Qb4+ 12.Nfd2 Nf6 is also possible)

ii) 10.Nd4 Nf4 11.Qf3 (11.e6 g5 {11...c5!?; 11...Qd6}) 11...c5 (11...b4; 11...g5) 12.Qxf4 (12.e6; 12.Nc6) 12...g5! 13.Ne6! gxf4 14.Nxd8 Kxd8 15.d6 Ke8 with an unclear position

iii) 10.b4 is Fritz 11's favourite 10...g5 11.bxa5 
(11.Bg3; 11.Nd4) 
11...gxh4 12.Nd4 
(12.Nxh4 Rg8!?) 
12...e6 
(12...Nf4? 13.Qf3 Ng6 14.Nc6 Qd7 15.e6 fxe6 16.Qh5 Bg7 {16...Rg8 17.Ne5} 17.Qxg6+ Kf8 18.0-0-0 Qe8 19.Qxe8+ Kxe8 20.dxe6 Bxe6 21.Ne4 +-)
13.Qxh5
(13.d6 Qg5 {13...cxd6!?} 14.Qf3 {14.Nf3 Qf5} 14...Qxe5+ 15.Be2 Bxd6 {15...Qxd4 16.Qc6+ Kd8 17.Qxc7+ =} 16.0-0-0 Qf4+)
13...Bb4 14.0-0-0
(14.Qf3 Qxd5; 14.Rc1 Qxd5 15.Nf3 Qe4+ 16.Kd1 Bxc3 17.Rxc3 Qb1+ 18.Rc1 Qxa2)
14...Bxc3 15.Nc6
(15.dxe6 Qg5+)
15...Qg5+ 16.Qxg5 hxg5 17.Kc2 b4 18.Bxc4 Bb7 and the position is about equal e.g. 19.a3 Bxc6 20.dxc6 Bxe5 21.axb4 =

I got a little carried away with my analysis, because the lines seem very interesting to me...

Does anyone have any thoughts on this line?
  
FIDE: ~2100
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