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analyzethat
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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #54 - 01/22/09 at 15:37:27
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Very interesting posts.

From Dragan Glas post along with some of the others and my own experience, I think that a lot has to do with how you approach chess in the first place. If you are taught in the right way when you start out this could lead to a big difference.

In my club for example there is a man who is a local politican in my city and very a very succesful one. However his rating is something like 1300 and he has been playing chess all his life. Now this man could hardly be called dumb, yet if you only looked at his chess rating in relation to the time he has played chess it would certainly appear so.

At the same time there are 8 year old kids who have a rating that is hundreds of points above him, yet they can not solve simple multiplication and their overall personality do not reflect any type of special abilities.

Like Dragon Glas suggests, perhaps you must go back to the very basics and reexamine. I think it was Tarrasch who said that all the books that he'd read during his career had hurt him more than it had helped him and he wished that he could "unlearn" it.

Now that' the difficult part, especially if you've been playing chess for a long time... Since if you knew what you were doing wrong you would have corrected it a long time agp.
  
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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #53 - 01/19/09 at 21:14:56
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Greetings,

Stigma wrote on 01/19/09 at 08:11:23:
analyzethat wrote on 01/16/09 at 07:02:39:
I read somewhere though that amateurs calculate just as far as masters, just that they calculate the wrong things.

Someone critisised Kotov's method for being too unpractical and I agree with him. Sure, all of the above positions could have been solved if you had calculated all relevant moves but then how do you explain the fact that masters are equally good at blitz. They "just see" and there is nothing in Kotov's book that explains this... Someone said that Tal never calculated, he just saw the combinations in whole units. 

I'm sure I am incorrect though, if I knew the answer my rating would be much higher...


IM / Psychologist Fernand Gobet has been one of the main proponents of this view that differences in playing strength are not much related to how far you calculate. But then he conducted a study where a GM and an IM calculated much better in a complicated position than lower-level players, ironically by referring to and consciously trying to follow Kotov's "tree of analysis" method! The new view seems to be: Even though stronger chess players usually don't calculate more (because they tend to find the relevant ideas quickly and concentrate on them) they can calculate deeper and better when the position really demands it. In older experiments the problems were often not hard enough to discover this. See http://www.estudiodepsicologia.com.ar/articles/5.pdf (note that "search" is used there as a technical term meaning calculation).

I actually agree that what you can recognize/see in a position is more important than calculation skills, and besides increasing one's store of patterns leads to better, more efficient calculation. Kotov does not acknowledge this enough, though there are some hints that he realized it in his other book "Play like a Grandmaster" if you read carefully.

Btw. the Kotov method that has been criticized as unpractical is his "tree of analysis" ideal for calculating variations, not the idea of taking lots of time trying to solve complicated positions, which is still recommended by most good trainers. These two sides of his method are logically independent. 

Of course talent sets a limit, but that's not an argument against hard work, which is necessary to reach your potential whatever your level of "natural talent". When Alekhine beat Capablanca the latter probably relied too much on his talent to see him through, while Alekhine worked a lot harder preparing for the match and analyzing his opponent. Note also this qoute:

"Reshevsky is the most talented player in the world. But it doesn't matter, because I worked so much harder." - Mikhail Botvinnik.

In conclusion I think building one's store of patterns is essential to improvement for most players, but direct calculation training is pretty useful too. It's a bit like debating which is the "right" training method for football; running OR weightlifting Smiley

@kylemeister: 
That calculation/EEG study sounds very interesting, do you have any reference for it? Where did Heisman mention it?

That's it in a nutshell.

Capablanca was considered to be "lazy", in terms of working at all aspects of his game - granted, he did study late-middle-/endgames.

Like anyone who finds things easy, he wasn't really challenged and, as a result, didn't feel the need to study.

Were he alive today, he'd have been like Karpov - he'd have undoubtedly played in as many tournaments; but he'd have had to study to be at or near the top.

As regards the general concept of talent and how much of a role it plays in chess (or any field)...

The brain has been described as a "self-organizing pattern-recognition system".

A baby is, generally, considered to be born with most - if not all - of the brain connected. It needs to be born "ready", as survival depends on it.

As the baby/child grows, only those connections which are augmented by experience remain connected (in other words, proven relevant to survival) - the rest gradually lose connection: "Use it or lose it".

Taking Capablanca as a example, he first was exposed to chess through watching his father playing a neighbour - at the age of four. Simply by watching them playing over a period of time he deduced the legal moves of the pieces to the point where, on one occasion, after the neighbour had left, Capablanca told his father that the neighbour had made an illegal move. His father didn't believe that his four-year old son would know such a thing - however Capablanca proved it by not only playing his father in a game, but beating him - again and again.

That was just a recap for anyone unfamiliar with Capablanca's story.

It's clear that, his "talent" comprised certain things that were mentioned earlier:

1) Early exposure to the game;
2) His interest in watching;
2) His intelligence in deducing the rules of chess, as regards their legal moves AND where pieces should go based purely on observing the games between his father and the neighbour(!)

It is this latter ability that is the key - in this case - to his talent.

This intuitive positional grasp was further improved by playing other opponents through his early career.

But the main "damage" was done in those few months at the age of four.

@ analyzethat

I think that, from what you're saying, you may be having problems getting past a certain level because you're hazy about certain simpler tactical elements.

For example, it's difficult to progress to more advanced mathematics if your grasp of more basic mathematics is poor
You may need to go through Nunn's book to (re)learn/review tactical elements and basic motifs - it's possible that there's a "hole" somewhere in your tactical grasp.

I know that I have problems with knight forks - as a result, I've looked for positions with tactics involving forks on which to practice.

Then you can return to tactical puzzles in their various forms, as have been suggested by others.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #52 - 01/19/09 at 17:08:26
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Hello:

What is a solo chess exercise?

Thanks,

Gerry

Holbox wrote on 01/19/09 at 11:31:57:
Quote:
deliberate practice


Yes, it seems that this is the correct way. That's why I recomended the "solo" chess exercise as an improving method. The better way of learning chess is playing. Interesting about this theme is Michelone's work "Desarrolla la intuición en Ajedrez" published by Chessy.  



  
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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #51 - 01/19/09 at 14:58:49
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It is a worthwhile read. The author makes a compelling case, but I myself remain somewhat skeptical. It has quite a few chess references as well. For instance, there is some substantial discussion on the Polgar sisters.
  

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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #50 - 01/19/09 at 13:19:43
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Antillian wrote on 01/19/09 at 09:25:15:

Does talent really set a limit? I am currently reading a book  by Geoff Colvin entitled "Talent is Overrated - What Really Separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else" The writer makes the strong case that studies across a wide spectrum of human activity, from sport to music to chess have so far failed to produce any evidence of innate talent. He argues that in fact, all the evidence when properly examined suggests that training ( or what he refers to as deliberate practice ) is the real determinant of who reaches the highest levels of performance or not. 

I don't know, and I take back my "Of course". I'm very much open to the possibility that what we think of as 'talent' in chess is just a combination of early exposure to the game, starting serious tournament play early, high capacity for work, high interest in the game and so on.

Memory and ability to assimilate information are often considered part of the "innate" talent for chess, but it's really a bit of a "hen and egg" problem. Do you learn chess easily because you are born with a good memory, or do you develop a good memory because you looked at so much chess at an early age? Besides, are we talking about general, visuo-spatial or chess-specific memory?

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'm not sure I agree that 'deliberate practice' can't be fun though. One of my most satisfying training experiences was going through Khmelnitsky's "Chess Exam and Training Guide" with 20 minutes per position. Taught me a lot about my strengths and weaknesses, mostly in terms of calculation and concentration.
« Last Edit: 01/19/09 at 15:43:44 by Stigma »  

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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #49 - 01/19/09 at 11:53:50
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Holbox wrote on 01/19/09 at 11:31:57:
Quote:
deliberate practice


Yes, it seems that this is the correct way. That's why I recomended the "solo" chess exercise as an improving method. The better way of learning chess is playing. Interesting about this theme is Michelone's work "Desarrolla la intuición en Ajedrez" published by Chessy.  




Well, yes and no. What the author calls "deliberate practice", in my opinion would be less ambiguously called "training". 

The author's definition of "deliberate practice" is "activity designed specifically to improve performance, often with a teacher's help, it can be repeated a lot; feedback on results is continuously available, it's highly demanding mentally......and it isn't much fun". 
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #48 - 01/19/09 at 11:31:57
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Quote:
deliberate practice


Yes, it seems that this is the correct way. That's why I recomended the "solo" chess exercise as an improving method. The better way of learning chess is playing. Interesting about this theme is Michelone's work "Desarrolla la intuición en Ajedrez" published by Chessy.   


  

"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #47 - 01/19/09 at 09:25:15
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Stigma wrote on 01/19/09 at 08:11:23:

Of course talent sets a limit, but that's not an argument against hard work, which is necessary to reach your potential whatever your level of "natural talent". When Alekhine beat Capablanca the latter probably relied too much on his talent to see him through, while Alekhine worked a lot harder preparing for the match and analyzing his opponent. Note also this qoute:

"Reshevsky is the most talented player in the world. But it doesn't matter, because I worked so much harder." - Mikhail Botvinnik.



Does talent really set a limit? I am currently reading a book  by Geoff Colvin entitled "Talent is Overrated - What Really Separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else" The writer makes the strong case that studies across a wide spectrum of human activity, from sport to music to chess have so far failed to produce any evidence of innate talent. He argues that in fact, all the evidence when properly examined suggests that training ( or what he refers to as deliberate practice ) is the real determinant of who reaches the highest levels of performance or not. 


  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #46 - 01/19/09 at 08:58:29
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kylemeister wrote on 01/19/09 at 08:37:47:
@Stigma

The Heisman quote is from his December column (the current one, as of right now) at chesscafe.com, but I don't know anything beyond that.


Thank you, I will check it out.
  

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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #45 - 01/19/09 at 08:37:47
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@Stigma

The Heisman quote is from his December column (the current one, as of right now) at chesscafe.com, but I don't know anything beyond that.
  
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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #44 - 01/19/09 at 08:11:23
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analyzethat wrote on 01/16/09 at 07:02:39:
I read somewhere though that amateurs calculate just as far as masters, just that they calculate the wrong things.

Someone critisised Kotov's method for being too unpractical and I agree with him. Sure, all of the above positions could have been solved if you had calculated all relevant moves but then how do you explain the fact that masters are equally good at blitz. They "just see" and there is nothing in Kotov's book that explains this... Someone said that Tal never calculated, he just saw the combinations in whole units. 

I'm sure I am incorrect though, if I knew the answer my rating would be much higher...


IM / Psychologist Fernand Gobet has been one of the main proponents of this view that differences in playing strength are not much related to how far you calculate. But then he conducted a study where a GM and an IM calculated much better in a complicated position than lower-level players, ironically by referring to and consciously trying to follow Kotov's "tree of analysis" method! The new view seems to be: Even though stronger chess players usually don't calculate more (because they tend to find the relevant ideas quickly and concentrate on them) they can calculate deeper and better when the position really demands it. In older experiments the problems were often not hard enough to discover this. See http://www.estudiodepsicologia.com.ar/articles/5.pdf (note that "search" is used there as a technical term meaning calculation).

I actually agree that what you can recognize/see in a position is more important than calculation skills, and besides increasing one's store of patterns leads to better, more efficient calculation. Kotov does not acknowledge this enough, though there are some hints that he realized it in his other book "Play like a Grandmaster" if you read carefully.

Btw. the Kotov method that has been criticized as unpractical is his "tree of analysis" ideal for calculating variations, not the idea of taking lots of time trying to solve complicated positions, which is still recommended by most good trainers. These two sides of his method are logically independent. 

Of course talent sets a limit, but that's not an argument against hard work, which is necessary to reach your potential whatever your level of "natural talent". When Alekhine beat Capablanca the latter probably relied too much on his talent to see him through, while Alekhine worked a lot harder preparing for the match and analyzing his opponent. Note also this qoute:

"Reshevsky is the most talented player in the world. But it doesn't matter, because I worked so much harder." - Mikhail Botvinnik.

In conclusion I think building one's store of patterns is essential to improvement for most players, but direct calculation training is pretty useful too. It's a bit like debating which is the "right" training method for football; running OR weightlifting Smiley

@kylemeister: 
That calculation/EEG study sounds very interesting, do you have any reference for it? Where did Heisman mention it?
  

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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #43 - 01/18/09 at 06:43:57
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I have heard the best way to learn tactics is just to go through a tactics book filled with problems and then go through it again, and again, etc.. This helps to develop pattern recognition and thereby greatly increases your tactical capabilities. Now I've never been to these tactic server sites, and Im not as strong as half the people on this forum, but I have greatly increased my tactical capabilities going through my tactical problem books just once so far (Im planning on going through them multiple times) and I have a 2100 rating on chess.com's tactics trainer.
  

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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #42 - 01/17/09 at 22:20:11
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I think CTS is an AMAZING site. I use it every day for at least 30 minutes. I believe recognizing threats and patterns faster is a key to becoming stronger tactically. Also, I would note do not pay too much attention to ratings on CTS. If you look through the rather large userlist you'll notice many GMs have 1800 ratings. I have spotted over 100 masters rated under 1900 including NAKAMURA who only has 1849 rating!
  
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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #41 - 01/16/09 at 21:44:17
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Greetings,

I agree with Stigma (and swingdoc) with regards to talent not being the whole story.

I also read Kotov's books(!) and certainly understood what he meant - "practice makes perfect".

analyzethat wrote on 01/16/09 at 07:02:39:
I read somewhere though that amateurs calculate just as far as masters, just that they calculate the wrong things.

Someone critisised Kotov's method for being too unpractical and I agree with him. Sure, all of the above positions could have been solved if you had calculated all relevant moves but then how do you explain the fact that masters are equally good at blitz. They "just see" and there is nothing in Kotov's book that explains this... Someone said that Tal never calculated, he just saw the combinations in whole units. 

I'm sure I am incorrect though, if I knew the answer my rating would be much higher...

Actually, amateurs see the same candidate moves as grandmasters - the problem is that they also consider even more because they don't have sufficient knowledge/experience to dismiss the latter.

Karpov and Capablanca had a intuitive positional grasp of the board.

In psychological terms, this is called "unconscious competent" - their "thinking" occurred in their unconscious mind, they didn't have to consciously work it out - they just "knew" where their pieces should be.

Tal and Kasparov share a similar grasp, although this was more in combinative insight.

In the latter's case, there's that famous position, which had been shown to Fischer - who'd taken some time to solve it - where Kasparov had seen the solution virtually instantly. When asked how he'd done it, he replied, "I just knew what to do".

Nevertheless, anyone should be able to train themselves to "see" tactical patterns on the board - one might not be as competent or quick as those with a innate talent, but one can develop that part of one's game.

If - despite your best efforts - you do reach a plateau, take a break: develop other areas of your game and then see if that has given you "something extra" which enables you to make further progress in your problem area.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Question about tactics
Reply #40 - 01/16/09 at 17:45:25
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analyzethat wrote on 01/16/09 at 07:02:39:
I read somewhere though that amateurs calculate just as far as masters, just that they calculate the wrong things.

Someone critisised Kotov's method for being too unpractical and I agree with him. Sure, all of the above positions could have been solved if you had calculated all relevant moves but then how do you explain the fact that masters are equally good at blitz. They "just see" and there is nothing in Kotov's book that explains this... Someone said that Tal never calculated, he just saw the combinations in whole units. 

I'm sure I am incorrect though, if I knew the answer my rating would be much higher...


That reminds me of this bit from Dan Heisman ...

An interesting study was done a few years ago to determine which part of the brain was being used during a chess game by players of different playing strengths. If I recall correctly, the method used electroencephalograms (EEGs). The data showed that the level of player that analyzed the most was expert (FIDE/USCF 2000-2199). As the ratings dropped the players did less and less analysis, either because they did not know how or because they did not wish to work that hard. But higher rated players also did less analysis, as they relied on their memory to recall the correct ideas in similar positions. It is much better to know what to do than to figure it out by analysis – less room for error and much less time used on the clock – but it seems that you must be at least master level before playing chess this way is efficient!
  
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