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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) NEW BDG BOOK (Read 267811 times)
MNb
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #201 - 12/22/11 at 14:09:44
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Gambit wrote on 12/22/11 at 12:57:24:
MNb, you seem to completely forget an important distinction.

That distinction is completely irrelevant for my argument. The Lemberger is part of your BDG repertoire. It makes the BDG a boring opening, unless the Hübsch is revived. You don't like that one, so instead you have to play a boring opening.
2.c4 is far more interesting I say than the boring 2.e4. In a corr game with the Spassky Gambit I managed to sac a Knight on f7 on move 15. Now I think of it, in another corr game with the Rubinstein Variation of the NID I sacced a rook on move 20. Only on move 29 this material deficiency was reduced to a Knight, which continued until my opponent resigned.
I don't think I'll get such chances after 3...e5.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #200 - 12/22/11 at 13:04:02
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On this point I have to agree more with MNb- if you use the move-order 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 then you can hardly avoid the Lemberger.
  
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Gambit
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #199 - 12/22/11 at 12:57:24
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MNb, you seem to completely forget an important distinction. The BDG is 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 , not 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 e5.  So, you can argue that the Lemberger Counter Gambit avoids the BDG, but that is all. 

Hardly a boring opening.

  
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SWJediknight
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #198 - 12/22/11 at 12:15:19
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MNb wrote on 12/21/11 at 23:16:05:
SWJediknight wrote on 12/21/11 at 21:52:40:
But my earlier point was that the Lemberger requires Black to be happy with prospectless equality after 4.dxe5, or an extra pawn in return for some compensation after 4.Nxe4, so it has its downsides as a retort to the BDG.

In short: the BDG s***s because after 3...e5 White doesn't have any better than the boring 4.dxe5. At the other hand 3...e5 s***s because White can chose the boring 4.dxe5.
This pretty much makes all the propagandistic bla bla useless.

Although objectively 4.Nxe4 is no better than 4.dxe5, I don't think it follows that the opening is boring if White can force "compensation for a pawn" positions with 4.Nxe4 and hope to get full compensation- in that case 3...e5 is no more of a problem than 3...Nf6 4.f3 exf3 which has the same assessment.

After all, in the Danish/Göring Gambit Declined line, 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 Nc6 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Nc3 Bb4, 8.Be3 is objectively no better than 8.Be2, but that isn't a strong argument for the notion that the whole line is as boring as the endings that result from 8.Be2 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Qc4.

Where I do think there's an issue with the BDG is the way some fanatics get it in nearly every game (with 1.d4 d5 2.e4, 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3, 1.d4 d5 2.e4 e6 3.Be3 for example), thus severely limiting the range of positions that they get out of the opening.  There are plenty of other openings that give a lot of scope for tactical and unbalanced play.  It's quite similar to the problem with trying to get a Colle System or London in every game, but the latter two openings are more definitely sound than the Blackmar-Diemer.  This is the main reason why I only use the BDG as an occasional weapon, mainly via transposition from 1.e4 openings.

This objection wouldn't apply, for instance, to those who use the Danish and/or Göring Gambits exclusively (or for that matter a mainline 1.e4 opening like the Scotch or Ruy Lopez) because White can only use them against 1.e4 e5, obviously after 1...c5, 1...c6 or 1...e6 White has to find a different set-up.
  
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MNb
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #197 - 12/22/11 at 09:51:02
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Gambit wrote on 12/22/11 at 05:21:44:
The LCG should be tested with 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nx3 e5 4 Nxe4 or 4 Nge2.

Which aren't better than 4.dxe5. So the BDG is a boring opening. I have tried the toilet, thanks for the advise, LDZ, but it didn't make the BDG any more interesting.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Gambit
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #196 - 12/22/11 at 05:21:44
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MNb wrote on 12/21/11 at 23:16:05:
SWJediknight wrote on 12/21/11 at 21:52:40:
But my earlier point was that the Lemberger requires Black to be happy with prospectless equality after 4.dxe5, or an extra pawn in return for some compensation after 4.Nxe4, so it has its downsides as a retort to the BDG.

In short: the BDG s***s because after 3...e5 White doesn't have any better than the boring 4.dxe5. At the other hand 3...e5 s***s because White can chose the boring 4.dxe5.
This pretty much makes all the propagandistic bla bla useless.


Well, MNb, you know where the nearest toilet is, right? Since you are the one who says s***s...

With regard to the French Defense, try 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 e6 and now 4 Be3 intending 5 f3. 

The LCG should be tested with 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nx3 e5 4 Nxe4 or 4 Nge2.
  
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MNb
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #195 - 12/21/11 at 23:16:05
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SWJediknight wrote on 12/21/11 at 21:52:40:
But my earlier point was that the Lemberger requires Black to be happy with prospectless equality after 4.dxe5, or an extra pawn in return for some compensation after 4.Nxe4, so it has its downsides as a retort to the BDG.

In short: the BDG s***s because after 3...e5 White doesn't have any better than the boring 4.dxe5. At the other hand 3...e5 s***s because White can chose the boring 4.dxe5.
This pretty much makes all the propagandistic bla bla useless.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #194 - 12/21/11 at 22:58:13
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Gambit wrote on 12/21/11 at 18:08:03:
Chevy, if you want to play the BDG, you have to be prepared for the Lemberger. Your problem is that you don't have enough confidence. How many times have I played an inferior French Defense and won? Many times!


Who cares? There are more efficient ways of beating weaker players with White (1.g3 for instance). I don't need to make bad moves to induce errors from my opponents. I just have a strong distaste for this type of play. Sure, it can sometimes be effective, but it has self-imposed limitations. I'd rather create options for myself than take them away.
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #193 - 12/21/11 at 21:52:40
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Actually I agree that the c3 Sicilian perhaps offers more chances of a lasting edge for White than the Lemberger. 

But my earlier point was that the Lemberger requires Black to be happy with prospectless equality after 4.dxe5, or an extra pawn in return for some compensation after 4.Nxe4, so it has its downsides as a retort to the BDG.  In addition if White can force "compensation for a pawn" lines in the Lemberger then your typical BDG enthusiast won't be too bothered about it- the whole point of a "declining" line being bothersome for the gambiteer is that it prevents White from generally achieving "compensation for a pawn" lines, such as with 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 d5.

1.d4 Nf6 is of course a bigger problem for those who want to get a BDG in every game, as are a couple of transpositions to the French Defence, most notably 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e6, when 4.f3 Bb4! gives Black good chances of an edge.
  
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Gambit
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #192 - 12/21/11 at 18:08:03
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Chevy, if you want to play the BDG, you have to be prepared for the Lemberger. Your problem is that you don't have enough confidence. How many times have I played an inferior French Defense and won? Many times!
  
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MNb
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #191 - 12/20/11 at 16:52:35
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Even more fun for Black is 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 c5 3.d5 d6 4.e4 e6 5.c4 b5!
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #190 - 12/20/11 at 16:47:28
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SWJediknight wrote on 12/20/11 at 12:28:03:


As an aside, I don't think the c3-Sicilian is considered a particularly good way towards a White advantage these days, with most of the top players who avoid the Open moving towards Bb5(+) systems.


Black may be good in the c3 Sicilian, but there are different types of "equality." Maybe this sounds vague, but I think the c3 Sicilian is more challenging for Black than the Lemberger.
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #189 - 12/20/11 at 16:35:51
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Gambit wrote on 12/20/11 at 08:17:08:
See, Chevy, that's being unaware of the proper move order and theory.  To answer your question, after 1 d4 Nf6 try 2 f3. This avoids the pesky Hubsch Gambit, which even I don't trust, and steers the game into the BDG after 2...d5 3 e4 dxe4 4 Nc3. Of course, you might have to be prepared to play against the Pirc Defense, 2 f3 d6 3 e4 g6, etc. or the Benoni, 2 f3 c5 3 d5.

Regarding the Lemberger Counter Gambit, there are several ways to play against it. After 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 e5, White can play 4 Nge2, the Rasmussen Attack, or 4 Nxe4, the Lange Gambit. Since the opponent cannot use a computer in OTB chess, you have good chances.

Grandmasters are conservative and don't like to take risks with the BDG.  Nevertheless, IM and GM games with the BDG exist. Do your research.


I've done my research. Tongue A lot of those IM and GM games occur by transposition, no? Probably the coolest thing is that Kasparov played a "BDG" (tempo up) once in a simul from the Trompovsky.

White has many ways against the Lemberger, and none are particulary inspiring to me. I have more ambition as White. It's not so difficult for Black to at least equalize.

I am aware of 2.f3, but I think it's kinda lame. 2.f3 d5 3.e4 c5 - BDG denied. No way I'll go for an inferior French. I'm not huge fan of f3 systems in other openings anyway and this is a funny way of going about it. Well, I'll give you that it's much better than 1.f3. My position is that you'll have a lot of trouble convincing strong players to adopt 2.f3. I don't care what style you have - it just doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of logical development principles.
  
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Gambit
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #188 - 12/20/11 at 14:13:48
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So what? Equality in the Lemberger? I will take it.
  
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Re: NEW BDG BOOK
Reply #187 - 12/20/11 at 12:28:03
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The main issue with the Lemberger is that Black has to be prepared to face dead equality after 4.dxe5 Qxd1+ 5.Nxd1, or end up with an extra pawn for compensation anyway after 4.Nxe4 Qxd4 5.Bd3, 4...exd4 5.Bb5+ c6 6.Bc4, and 4...Nc6 5.Bb5 Qxd4 6.Qe2.  4.Nge2 is also tricky, though Black probably gets the better of it after 4...Nc6!.

The Hubsch Gambit is indeed dubious: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4 4.Nxe4 dxe4, and now 5.Bc4 Nc6! leads to a Black edge (6.c3 e5 7.d5 Ne5, as recommended by Eric Prie, leads to =+, while Scheerer considers 7...Nb8 to be even better).  5.Bf4 used to be my preference, with White getting enough compensation against the traditional ...Bf5 and/or ...e6, ...Bd6 approaches, but 5...e6 intending ...c5 is problematic for White.  Today my preference would be 5.Be3 when White at least has some chances of getting enough compensation.  I've seen debates on the rights and wrongs of 2.f3 elsewhere, e.g. 2...c5!? aiming for lines where f2-f3 isn't particularly useful.  White could also end up in some sort of Samisch King's Indian or 4.f3 Nimzo-Indian (though neither of those are bad for White).

As an aside, I don't think the c3-Sicilian is considered a particularly good way towards a White advantage these days, with most of the top players who avoid the Open moving towards Bb5(+) systems.
  
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