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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Slav with 4.Qc2 (Read 3832 times)
fling
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #39 - 08/13/11 at 14:34:51
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HoemberChess wrote on 08/11/11 at 20:39:26:
BABYBIRD wrote on 11/02/10 at 23:18:28:
@Hoember

Welcome in the world of the 4.Qc2 players !
(I don’t have Wojo's Weapons Volume 1.)

After 4.Qc2 e6 5.Bg5, you will find more players carefully answering with 5...Be7, and you have to deal with the Orthodox lines, which have been covered in so many books. Against 5...Qa5+, 6.Nd2 switching from the Cambridge Springs to more unchartered territories is also interesting.

After 4...dxc4 5.Qxc4 Bf5, there was an excellent article in New in Chess 83, but the line (Aronian – Anand, Morelia/Linares, 2007) is very dry, and may be not everyone’s taste. And Vigus is a huge fan of the line 5...Bg4 to challenge 4.Qc2. 
Or play 5.e4 b5 6.b3 (New in Chess 66 with an optimistic view of the situation, and Vigus,  more pessimistic –or realistic ?- for White)

Against 4...g6 (followed by ...Bf5 Qb3 Qb6) , I am afraid that nothing really convincing exists. Play the games collected by Burgess and New in Chess 64, but basically, this very quiet line is not about novelties, but about understanding positions. Black may also play without ...Bf5, and it is a kind of Grünfeld that appears tricky –to me, at least !


Right now I am planning on giving a try to 4.Qc2 dxc4 5.e4... I have been impressed by certain Feller-games from the recent past.


What do you need a book for? Just use a computer or get somebody to help you when playing OTB.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #38 - 08/13/11 at 08:10:13
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Quote:
Against 4...g6 (followed by ...Bf5 Qb3 Qb6) , I am afraid that nothing really convincing exists. Play the games collected by Burgess and New in Chess 64, but basically, this very quiet line is not about novelties, but about understanding positions. Black may also play without ...Bf5, and it is a kind of Grünfeld that appears tricky –to me, at least !


There is also the 4...g6 5.Bf4 Na6, the further main line being 6.e3 Bf5 7.Qb3 Nb4, which is anything but quiet. Not sure what source would be the best to look at this line, though.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #37 - 08/11/11 at 20:39:26
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BABYBIRD wrote on 11/02/10 at 23:18:28:
@Hoember

Welcome in the world of the 4.Qc2 players !
(I don’t have Wojo's Weapons Volume 1.)

After 4.Qc2 e6 5.Bg5, you will find more players carefully answering with 5...Be7, and you have to deal with the Orthodox lines, which have been covered in so many books. Against 5...Qa5+, 6.Nd2 switching from the Cambridge Springs to more unchartered territories is also interesting.

After 4...dxc4 5.Qxc4 Bf5, there was an excellent article in New in Chess 83, but the line (Aronian – Anand, Morelia/Linares, 2007) is very dry, and may be not everyone’s taste. And Vigus is a huge fan of the line 5...Bg4 to challenge 4.Qc2. 
Or play 5.e4 b5 6.b3 (New in Chess 66 with an optimistic view of the situation, and Vigus,  more pessimistic –or realistic ?- for White)

Against 4...g6 (followed by ...Bf5 Qb3 Qb6) , I am afraid that nothing really convincing exists. Play the games collected by Burgess and New in Chess 64, but basically, this very quiet line is not about novelties, but about understanding positions. Black may also play without ...Bf5, and it is a kind of Grünfeld that appears tricky –to me, at least !


Right now I am planning on giving a try to 4.Qc2 dxc4 5.e4... I have been impressed by certain Feller-games from the recent past.
  
as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #36 - 11/02/10 at 23:18:28
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@Hoember

Welcome in the world of the 4.Qc2 players !
(I don’t have Wojo's Weapons Volume 1.)

After 4.Qc2 e6 5.Bg5, you will find more players carefully answering with 5...Be7, and you have to deal with the Orthodox lines, which have been covered in so many books. Against 5...Qa5+, 6.Nd2 switching from the Cambridge Springs to more unchartered territories is also interesting.

After 4...dxc4 5.Qxc4 Bf5, there was an excellent article in New in Chess 83, but the line (Aronian – Anand, Morelia/Linares, 2007) is very dry, and may be not everyone’s taste. And Vigus is a huge fan of the line 5...Bg4 to challenge 4.Qc2. 
Or play 5.e4 b5 6.b3 (New in Chess 66 with an optimistic view of the situation, and Vigus,  more pessimistic –or realistic ?- for White)

Against 4...g6 (followed by ...Bf5 Qb3 Qb6) , I am afraid that nothing really convincing exists. Play the games collected by Burgess and New in Chess 64, but basically, this very quiet line is not about novelties, but about understanding positions. Black may also play without ...Bf5, and it is a kind of Grünfeld that appears tricky –to me, at least !
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #35 - 11/02/10 at 21:21:44
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@Hoember

The reason I gave some repertoire books for Black is because they provide good coverage of a particular recommendation or two for Black, and through this you can learn what your opponents are most likely to play and prepare improvements over Vigorito's and Vigus's analysis. I recently analysed an opening where nearly all the books on the variation were repertoire books providing recommendations against the opening. That didn't stop me finding improvements over the recommendations in each book, and filling in the gaps myself.

The reason I gave OFWATK is because after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Qc2, 4...Nf6 transposes to 3...Nf6 4.Qc2 e6.  Wink


  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #34 - 11/02/10 at 13:05:38
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HoemberChess wrote on 11/02/10 at 11:53:18:

Wojo's Weapons... I have a feeling that only parts of my posts are read eventually.


Sorry, you are right. My bad.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #33 - 11/02/10 at 11:53:18
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TN wrote on 11/02/10 at 11:29:04:
The following list of sources might help:

Informants
Yearbooks
ECOs
CBM
Mastering Chess Openings Volume 2
Fundamental Chess Openings
Opening Essentials
Play the Slav
Play the Semi-Slav (but a second edition is in the pipeline)
The Slav by Burgess
Opening for White according to Kramnik
ChessPublishing archives
ChessToday
ChessVibes Openings

I'm sure I have forgotten a few.  Embarrassed


SmileyThanks, although I know about all of these. The answer could have been a little bit more specialized. I have given a few hints about what's missing.
Wojo's Weapons... I have a feeling that only parts of my posts are read eventually.

* CBM Theory articles:
Before posting here, I tried to search for it on Chessbase website. Sad
http://www.chessbase.com/products/cbm/indexcbm.asp

* Play the Semi-Slav by Vigorito
A repertoire for Black. Sad

* Play the Slav by Vigus
The same. Sad

* Mastering Chess Openings, Vol. 2 by Watson
I checked it as well. It doesn't cover 4.Qc2. Sad

* OFWAT Kramnik by Khalifman
I own the 1st edition, but AFAIK it gives the main line, with 4.Nc3, for White. Sad
« Last Edit: 11/02/10 at 19:23:11 by HoemberChess »  
as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #32 - 11/02/10 at 11:50:32
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Wojo's Weapons Volume 1
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #31 - 11/02/10 at 11:29:04
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The following list of sources might help:

Informants
Yearbooks
ECOs
CBM
Mastering Chess Openings Volume 2
Fundamental Chess Openings
Opening Essentials
Play the Slav
Play the Semi-Slav (but a second edition is in the pipeline)
The Slav by Burgess
Opening for White according to Kramnik
ChessPublishing archives
ChessToday
ChessVibes Openings

I'm sure I have forgotten a few.  Embarrassed
  
All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #30 - 11/02/10 at 10:20:51
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I am resurrecting this thread with a new question.

Now I have come to believe that it is more economical for me to learn 4.Qc2 against the Slav. In addition, this is the move I make against the Triangle (1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 c6 4.Qc2).

(Up to now, I have chosen 4.e3, but that gives Black a lot of options, besides I think it is too much for my current playing strength. | Anyway, the arising positions after 4.Qc2 dxc4 resemble my play on the Black side of the London System -- 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Qb3 Nc6 6.dxc5 Qxc5, "as Prie points out", which is an excerpt from Dealing with d4 Deviations (2005) by Cox.)

After 4.Qc2 if 4..e6, then 5.Bg5 (I don't yet play the subtle Catalan) and there's a repertoire book for White on what to do in this Qc2-version of the Cambridge-Springs (if Black chooses to play that variation).

But if 4..g6 or 4..dxc4 5.Qxc4 Bf5/Bg4, then...? How to make my White repertoire?
I know there is Wojo's Weapons on this, but I don't own it yet.
Please recommend alternative sources to study.
  
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*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #29 - 03/06/10 at 23:19:26
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gewgaw wrote on 03/06/10 at 16:00:43:


What do they recommend against 8. ...Nbd7 and 8. ...Bb1?


9.Nc3 and 9.Rxb1  Tongue
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #28 - 03/06/10 at 20:22:23
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5. g3 will not necessarily become a Closed Catalan, because Black has 5...dc and ...b5.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #27 - 03/06/10 at 20:15:27
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/06/10 at 14:36:03:
Ametanoitos wrote on 03/06/10 at 11:24:21:
The only reason to play this Qc2 variation is if you want to play the Catalan.



I normally find Amet's comments very insightful.  I don't always agree with him, but he usually doesn't make such easily falsifiable statements.

Korchnoi, Gurevich, Khalifman and hundreds of other Grandmasters have played 4.Qc2 and followed up not with a Catalan, but a QGD.

This isn't just a move-order trick, but a way of approaching the Slav that puts additional pressure on Black.

If Black plays 4...dc4, White does often go into the Catalan.  But 4.Qc2 isn't just about reaching the Catalan.  If Black declines on move 4, white often plays Bg5 and is quite happy to play the QGD with Qc2.


I said this because everyone that i know to play this Qc2 variation plays the Catalan against 2...e6. I can understand that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qc2 e6 and now White can play Nc3+Bg5 where his early Qc2 move cannot be punished with the usual ...c5 idea (typical with the Qc2, see for example Sokolov's comments in Winning Chess Middlegames) but the majority of people i know are happy to transpose to a closed catalan now with g2-g3. Also after 4...dxc4 White usually plays g3+Bg2 soon so again a Catalan player can feel comfortable even though there is no similar Catalan-type of position to compare. When i heard that Wojo's book recommend the Catalan AND this Qc2 variation all these seemed quite natural. Yes , i agree that my comment was not very accurate but this is also what Vigorito wrote in his Semi-Slav book! Maybe also the technical nature of the whole variation fits with the Catalan philosofy. 

Overall i think that this variation is closest to a Catalan player to a QGD player.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #26 - 03/06/10 at 17:54:04
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At the top level (+2500 for both players), 4...dc4 is more common than 4...g6 or 4...e6 combined.  I don't know why it's third most popular overall.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #25 - 03/06/10 at 16:00:43
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ericmittens wrote on 03/06/10 at 14:14:40:
Hello all, I can tell you what the Wojo guys recommend in this line.

After 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 c6 4.Qc2 g6 5.Bf4 Bf5 6.Qb3 Qb6 7.c5 Qxb3 8.axb3 Na6 9.Nc3 Nb4 10.Ra4 a5 they like 11.e3 with the idea of Bf4-c7.


What do they recommend against 8. ...Nbd7 and 8. ...Bb1?
  
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