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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Slav with 4.Qc2 (Read 3860 times)
BPaulsen
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #24 - 03/06/10 at 15:33:16
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/06/10 at 15:12:53:
Bryan, 

You're right, I was just looking at games where White played g3 and guessed they were Catalans.  In truth, 4...dc4 (which is relatively rare compared to 4...g6 and 4...e6) leads to D23, not E00-E09.

The players I mentioned earlier played 4...e6 5.Bg5 and reached lines that had been analysed by Petrosian.  I don't know whose name is associated with this line, but I had thought it was Spassky's.


It's surprising that 4...dxc4 is rare, considering 4. Qb3 dxc4 5. Qxc4 reaches the same position, and some big names have been on the black side after 5. Qxc4.

I was surprised to see someone use my first name.  Smiley
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #23 - 03/06/10 at 15:12:53
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Bryan, 

You're right, I was just looking at games where White played g3 and guessed they were Catalans.  In truth, 4...dc4 (which is relatively rare compared to 4...g6 and 4...e6) leads to D23, not E00-E09.

The players I mentioned earlier played 4...e6 5.Bg5 and reached lines that had been analysed by Petrosian.  I don't know whose name is associated with this line, but I had thought it was Spassky's.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #22 - 03/06/10 at 14:40:50
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4. Qc2 dxc4 5. Qxc4 Bf5/Bg4 is hardly a Catalan, unless there's some other fifth move that's critical and results in one that I'm just missing...
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #21 - 03/06/10 at 14:36:03
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/06/10 at 11:24:21:
The only reason to play this Qc2 variation is if you want to play the Catalan.



I normally find Amet's comments very insightful.  I don't always agree with him, but he usually doesn't make such easily falsifiable statements.

Korchnoi, Gurevich, Khalifman and hundreds of other Grandmasters have played 4.Qc2 and followed up not with a Catalan, but a QGD.

This isn't just a move-order trick, but a way of approaching the Slav that puts additional pressure on Black.

If Black plays 4...dc4, White does often go into the Catalan.  But 4.Qc2 isn't just about reaching the Catalan.  If Black declines on move 4, white often plays Bg5 and is quite happy to play the QGD with Qc2.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #20 - 03/06/10 at 14:14:40
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Hello all, I can tell you what the Wojo guys recommend in this line.

After 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 c6 4.Qc2 g6 5.Bf4 Bf5 6.Qb3 Qb6 7.c5 Qxb3 8.axb3 Na6 9.Nc3 Nb4 10.Ra4 a5 they like 11.e3 with the idea of Bf4-c7.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #19 - 03/06/10 at 12:00:06
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Paddy wrote on 03/06/10 at 11:21:19:
why White's chances are superior in lines such as 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 c6 3. c4 Nf6 4. Qc2 g6 5. Bf4 Bf5 6. Qb3 Qb6 7. c5 Qxb3 8. axb3.

Understanding this is quite easy even for amateurs below 2000 I would argue. Just take a look at Nikolic-Piket, Hoogovens 1989. White's play is slow but straightforward.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #18 - 03/06/10 at 11:24:21
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The only reason to play this Qc2 variation is if you want to play the Catalan.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #17 - 03/06/10 at 11:21:19
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HoemberChess wrote on 03/06/10 at 10:04:08:
4.Qc2 is refuted, then? Smiley Or is it playable?
Is 4..g6 the strongest Black answer?


4 Qc2 is a perfectly sound way to avoid main line Slav theory, but it has developed a large amount of theory of its own. It's not the sort of line I would recommend to anyone below 2000 (minimum) since in many of the lines the play is very subtle, the resulting positions hard to evaluate accurately and the white edge (such as it is) hard to exploit for a non-master. Even very strong engines are next to useless in helping a player understand why White's chances are superior in lines such as 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 c6 3. c4 Nf6 4. Qc2 g6 5. Bf4 Bf5 6. Qb3 Qb6 7. c5 Qxb3 8. axb3.

I would recommend playing something other than 4 Qc2, some line in which the ideas and plans are far more clear cut, even if that means going into a main line.

If you MUST play 4 Qc2, you will  probably find the recent book "Wojo's Weapons" a good source of ideas and explanations.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #16 - 03/06/10 at 11:18:48
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Maybe someone who has Wojo's repertoire book can answer this question about this variation (they recommend the Qc2 avariation against the Slav). I have prdered this book with Avruk's recent one and i'm stil waiting to receive both.... Sad
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #15 - 03/06/10 at 10:04:08
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4.Qc2 is refuted, then? Smiley Or is it playable?
Is 4..g6 the strongest Black answer?
  
as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #14 - 02/10/09 at 05:19:38
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gewgaw wrote on 02/09/09 at 18:34:11:
I still analyse the arrising positions after 4.Qc2 and I probably found an improvement...for black: 8. ...Nbd7! It seems white is playing for equality due to black´s developement advantage?!
Any hint for white?

1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 c6 3. c4 Nf6 4. Qc2 g6 5. Bf4
Bf5 6. Qb3 Qb6 7. c5 Qxb3 8. axb3 Nbd7 9. Nc3 (9. b4 a6 (9... Nh5 10. Be3 Bxb1
11. Rxb1 Bg7 12. g3 O-O 13. Bh3 Nhf6 14. Ra1 Rfe8 15. Bf4 h6 16. Ne5 Nxe5 17.
Bxe5 Ne4 $11) 10. Nc3 Rc8 (10... Bg7 11. b5) 11. h3 Ne4 12. g4 Nxc3 13. bxc3
Be4 14. Rg1 (14. Bg2 e5) 14... Bxf3 15. exf3 Bg7 16. Be3 e6 17. Kd2 O-O 18. f4
f5 19. g5 Kf7 20. h4 h5 $11) (9. Nbd2 Ne4 10. b4 Nxd2 11. Kxd2 Bg7 12. e3 f6
13. Nh4 Be6 14. Bg3 O-O (14... a6 15. b5) 15. b5) (9. e3 Nh5 10. Bc7 Bxb1 11.
Rxb1 Rc8 12. Ba5 Bg7 13. Bc3 a6 14. Ra1 O-O 15. Bd3 Rfe8 16. h3 e5 17. dxe5
Nxe5 18. Nxe5 Bxe5 19. Kd2 Nf6 $11) 9... Bg7 10. h3 O-O (10... Ne4 11. b4 (11.
e3 Nxc3 12. bxc3 Nxc5 13. b4 Nd3+ 14. Bxd3 Bxd3 15. Ne5 Bb5) 11... a6 12. e3
Nxc3 13. bxc3 O-O $11) 11. g4 (11. e3 Rfe8 12. b4 a6 13. Rg1 h5 14. Be2 Rac8
$11) 11... Be4 (11... Bc2 12. Bg2) 12. Bg2 Bxf3 13. Bxf3 Ne8 $15 *



May I ask what "$11" and "$15" means? As far as I know the players aren't fined during a game. 

By the way, regarding the 9.b4 a6 variation, 12.g4?! as in Rashkovsky-Smyslov, GMA open 1988 looks like a mistake - I would prefer 12.e3 Bg7 13.Nh4, when I slightly prefer White's position. 

However, 9...Nh5 does seem like an effective equaliser - perhaps 9.e3!? is the most promising course for White. For example: 9...Bg7 10.h3 0-0 11.Nbd2 and the computer claims equality, but I feel that White has reasonable chances of an advantage here. 

I suspect there is a good reason why no player over 2600 has played this yet, although there have been close to a dozen 2500+ players who have tried this before, with mixed results.
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #13 - 02/09/09 at 18:34:11
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I still analyse the arrising positions after 4.Qc2 and I probably found an improvement...for black: 8. ...Nbd7! It seems white is playing for equality due to black´s developement advantage?!
Any hint for white?

1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 c6 3. c4 Nf6 4. Qc2 g6 5. Bf4
Bf5 6. Qb3 Qb6 7. c5 Qxb3 8. axb3 Nbd7 9. Nc3 (9. b4 a6 (9... Nh5 10. Be3 Bxb1
11. Rxb1 Bg7 12. g3 O-O 13. Bh3 Nhf6 14. Ra1 Rfe8 15. Bf4 h6 16. Ne5 Nxe5 17.
Bxe5 Ne4 $11) 10. Nc3 Rc8 (10... Bg7 11. b5) 11. h3 Ne4 12. g4 Nxc3 13. bxc3
Be4 14. Rg1 (14. Bg2 e5) 14... Bxf3 15. exf3 Bg7 16. Be3 e6 17. Kd2 O-O 18. f4
f5 19. g5 Kf7 20. h4 h5 $11) (9. Nbd2 Ne4 10. b4 Nxd2 11. Kxd2 Bg7 12. e3 f6
13. Nh4 Be6 14. Bg3 O-O (14... a6 15. b5) 15. b5) (9. e3 Nh5 10. Bc7 Bxb1 11.
Rxb1 Rc8 12. Ba5 Bg7 13. Bc3 a6 14. Ra1 O-O 15. Bd3 Rfe8 16. h3 e5 17. dxe5
Nxe5 18. Nxe5 Bxe5 19. Kd2 Nf6 $11) 9... Bg7 10. h3 O-O (10... Ne4 11. b4 (11.
e3 Nxc3 12. bxc3 Nxc5 13. b4 Nd3+ 14. Bxd3 Bxd3 15. Ne5 Bb5) 11... a6 12. e3
Nxc3 13. bxc3 O-O $11) 11. g4 (11. e3 Rfe8 12. b4 a6 13. Rg1 h5 14. Be2 Rac8
$11) 11... Be4 (11... Bc2 12. Bg2) 12. Bg2 Bxf3 13. Bxf3 Ne8 $15 *



  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #12 - 02/04/09 at 19:25:47
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During the game I felt, that 11.h3 is too slow for the position, but I couldn´t believe in Kd1 + Nd1 or something like that.
I analysed 11. Bc7 for a while, the longer I think about it, the more I came to the question: Where was Black`s blunder? ^-^
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #11 - 02/02/09 at 20:52:28
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"I can see clearly now the rain is gone."

Ok - so you played a game and decided that you have to play 11.h3. This is OK because it is your decision over the board! 

But before posting in a theoretical forum   p l e a s e   check the variation. With the relaxed atmosphere at home (with or without the help of a digital friend)  it's easy to see (well - in analyses you are allowed to move the pieces and try ideas) that the feared Nc2 can be answered by Kd2 and f2 protected by Nd1. Therefore White has a "free" 11th move and can use it for Bc7 with an advantage.

I really hope to see you again with a well researched theoretical nut  Smiley
  
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Re: Slav with 4.Qc2
Reply #10 - 02/02/09 at 20:22:39
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Okay, here`s something to laugh; I´m really not proud of the game, but remember, both players have 2000 ^-^, so there is hope for any player to reach the 2000 barrier.


1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 Nf6 3. c4 c6 4. Qc2 g6 5. Bf4 Bf5 6. Qb3 Qb6 7. c5 Qxb3 8. axb3
Na6 9. Nc3 Nb4 10. Ra4 a5 11. h3 Bc2 12. Nd2 Kd7 13. g4 Bg7 14. Be5 Ne8 15.
Bxg7 Nxg7 16. Bg2 Ne6 (16... e5 17. dxe5 Ne6 18. O-O Nxc5 19. Ra3 Ne6 20. f4 h5
21. e4 d4 22. Na4 Kc7 23. f5 Nd8 24. Nf3 hxg4 25. hxg4 Bxe4 26. Nxd4 gxf5 27.
Nxf5 Bxg2 28. Kxg2 Nc2 29. Ra2 Ne6) 17. e3 Bd3 (17... h5 18. O-O hxg4 19. hxg4
f5 20. gxf5 gxf5) 18. f4 (18. Nf3 Bc2 19. Nd2 h5 20. O-O hxg4 21. hxg4 f5)
18... Bb5 (18... h5 19. Kf2 hxg4 20. hxg4 Rxh1 21. Bxh1 g5 22. f5 Nc7 23. Ra1
Nc2 24. Rd1) 19. Nxb5 cxb5 20. Rxb4 axb4 21. Bxd5 Ra1+ 22. Ke2 Rxh1 23. Bxh1
Kc7 24. Be4 Ra8 25. Bb1 Ra1 26. h4 b6 27. cxb6+ Kxb6 28. Kf3 Kc6 29. f5 gxf5 (
29... Nc7 30. Kf4 Nd5+ 31. Kf3 gxf5 32. gxf5 h6 33. Ke2 (33. e4 Nc3) 33... Kd6
34. Bd3 Ra2 35. Bxb5 Rxb2 36. Kd3) 30. gxf5 Nd8 31. Kf4 (31. f6 exf6 (31... e5
32. dxe5 Kd5 33. Kf4 Ne6+ 34. Kf5 Nc5) 32. Bxh7 Rh1) 31... f6 32. Be4+ Kd6 33.
Bf3 Ra2 34. Ne4+ Kc7 35. Nc5 Rxb2 36. Bd5 Kd6 37. Bg8 h6 38. Ne4+ Kd7 39. Nc5+
Kc6 40. e4 Rh2 41. Bd5+ Kd6 42. Kg4 Nc6 43. Ne6 Rh1 44. Kh5 Rh2 45. Kg4 Na5 46.
Kh5 Rh3 47. Nc5 Rh2 48. Kg4 Rd2 49. Ne6 Rd3 50. Nf4 Rxd4 51. Kh5 Rd2 (51...
Nxb3 52. Bxb3 Rxe4 53. Ne6 Rc4) 52. Kxh6 Rf2 53. Nd3 Rf3 54. Nxb4 Nxb3 (54...
Rg3 55. h5 Nxb3 56. Kh7 Nc5 57. h6 Rg4 58. Nc2 Nxe4 59. Bxe4 Rxe4 60. Kg7 b4
61. Na1 Rg4+ 62. Kf7 Rh4 63. Kg7 e5 64. fxe6 Kxe6 65. Nb3 Kd5 66. h7 f5 67.
h8=Q Rxh8 68. Kxh8 Kc4) 55. e5+ Kc5 56. Bxf3 Kxb4 57. exf6 exf6 58. Kg6 Nd2 59.
Bc6 Kc5 60. Bxb5 Kd6 61. h5 Nf3 62. h6 Nh4+ 63. Kxf6 1-0

  
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