ChessPub Forum - anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5

Nelson Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 77 Joined: 04/12/08	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #15 - 03/28/09 at 10:07:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi Markovich, I agree, I think the main 3 viable option are:- 1/ 2c4 and brave out a possible 2...Bb4+ which is off main line. 2/ 2e4 French and prepare a good line to see through to middlegame. 3/ 2Nf3 c5 3c4 which will probable keep you in more familiar territory than having to learn loads of Sicilian theory I you don't already have it. Regards, Nelson. P.s I've put these in order of my personal preference as it's not so hard to prepare for the deviations before main lines with 2c4.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #14 - 02/26/09 at 13:41:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Sorry to post off topic, but I agree with Nelson that the best answer to 1.d4 e6 is 2.c4 and just play against his wretched Dutch, if that's what he wants. I don't think that the Dutch in any of its forms is something that White should try to avoid. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 c5 and here anything but 3.e4 seems to be a very high price indeed to pay for avoiding the main lines of the Dutch. If I had sworn to my dying mother that I would never allow the Dutch, I would sooner prepare White's side of the French than that of the Sicilian Kan, Taimanov and Scheveningen.

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HoemberChess God Member Offline Posts: 512 Location: Lake d4 on Planet Chess Joined: 10/08/07 Gender:	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #13 - 02/26/09 at 11:18:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	(2006) Dutch Defence A80-A85 by SCHIPKOV, Boris is the solution for me, at least temporarily. It recommends 3.d5, but also mentions that after 3.e4 White has compensation for the pawn. 3.Bf4 also can be played occasionally, especially if Black strives for the Stonewall setup. On 3.Bg5, the simple Be7 is good for Black. Let me be the one to continue being offtopic in my own topic. Above, someone mentioned that he is not sure it is worth taking on another opening, namely, the French Defense, for the sake of only one move order, 1.d4 e6. My answer is, NO. French players are probably very well equipped to defend their pet opening, which we only have to face if Black plays 1..e6. (Which may happen only once out of 20 games with the white pieces...) Thus, my decision is 2.Nf3 and on 2..c5 I will play 3.e3. Or 3.c3 at times. If they don't know your repertoire, they will be surprised by you omitting an early c4. I will still have to find some material to study the opening, 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3/c3 from... Any tips as to where I can find such a thing?

	as W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc) B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]\| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]\| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6\| 1Nf3:c5
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #12 - 02/18/09 at 02:20:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't like 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bg5. In the Classical Dutch Black always is happy to have exchanged the black-squared bishops. It makes ...e5 easier. Why not 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bd3 ? White gets a Rubinstein, but avoids ...Bb4 lines and also the Leningrad. What remains is: 1) The Stonewall, eg 4...d5 5.c4 c6 6.Nc3 Bd6 and depending on taste White castles kingside or queenside. 2) The Classical, eg 4...Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 d6 7.Nc3 Qe8 8.e4 Van den Berg-Burstein, Haifa 1958. 3) A queenside fianchetto; White plays for d4-d5, sometimes as a gambit. These lines are probably not as dangerous as 2.g3 main lines, but still pose quite some problems imo.

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JonathanB Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 449 Location: London Joined: 11/17/07 Gender:	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #11 - 02/14/09 at 18:05:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dragan Glas wrote on 02/13/09 at 12:10:28: I'm not sure I understand the "taking on the French" comment?! See Holbox above - 2nd post in the thread

	www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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Dragan Glas Senior Member Offline "If I, like Solomon, ... could have my wish - " Posts: 424 Location: Ireland Joined: 06/25/06 Gender:	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #10 - 02/14/09 at 02:58:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Greetings, Did you mean 2..., f5 or 2..., c5? If the latter, you're talking about a Benoni and will need to start your own topic - this one is about the Dutch transposition 1.d4, e6; 2.Nf3, f5. Kindest regards, Dragan Glas


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Nelson Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 77 Joined: 04/12/08	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #9 - 02/13/09 at 20:25:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi Guys, I personally have a problem with 1 d4 e6 2 Nf3 c5 where if feel almost obliged to play some sort of Colle/Zukertort system French or an open Sicilian. I know there are other options but it can mean adding new opening to repertoir just for one particular move order when you're predominently a 1 d4 player trying to avoid certain lines. Perhaps the best move is 2 c4 and brace yourself for any deviations before the main lines. Not sure if this is the right forum to post this ..??? Nelson.


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Dragan Glas Senior Member Offline "If I, like Solomon, ... could have my wish - " Posts: 424 Location: Ireland Joined: 06/25/06 Gender:	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #8 - 02/13/09 at 12:10:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Greetings, I'm not sure I understand the "taking on the French" comment?! Black's played 2..., f5 rather than 2..., d5 - equally, the Staunton position arrives at move seven after 1.d4, e6; 2.Nf3, f5; 3.Nc3, Nf6; 4.Bg5, Be7; 5.Bxf6, Bxf6; 6.e4, ef; 7.Nxe4. I was writing this post when I just realised: you're referring to TN's post above! Kindest regards, Dragan Glas


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JonathanB Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 449 Location: London Joined: 11/17/07 Gender:	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #7 - 02/12/09 at 23:17:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	HoemberChess wrote on 02/11/09 at 17:31:42: ... sadly, in this move order he can play 3..Be7 and ..d6 after the exchange of the bishops (instead of ..d5) and play something else. I am still looking for an anti-Dutch line after 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5. Well exactly - if Black plays sensibly it doesn't make sense. Incidentally, one of the main reasons why I play the Dutch is that many/most players of my level don't play early c2-c4 systems but favour some kind of alternative. The Dutch seems very resilient to these side-variations to my eyes. J PS: regarding 2. e4 being the best move as noted above? Is taking on the French really better for White than playing into the main lines of the Dutch? I'm not so sure.

	www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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Dragan Glas

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Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5
Reply #6 - 02/12/09 at 00:33:41

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Greetings,

You could transpose into the following weaker line - for Black - of the Staunton:

1.d4, e6; 2.Nf3, f5; 3.Nc3, Nf6; 4.Bg5, Be7; 5.Bxf6, Bxf6; 6.e4 - now 6...,ef; 7.Nxe4 transposes to 1.d4, f5; 2.e4, ef; 3.Nc3, Nf6; 4.Bg5, e6!?; 5.Nxe4, Be7; 6.Bxf6, Bxf6; 7.Nf3.

If Black castles short, White gets the better game - instead, he should castle long - even so, master games seem to favour White.

A blitz game I played today actually was in this inferior line for Black:

Event: FICS rated blitz game
White: DraganGlas (1378)
Black: falilampa (1293)
Result: 1-0
Time Control: 600+0
Date: 2009-02-11
White Clock:
10:00
BlackClock:
10:00

1. d4 f5 2. e4 fxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 e6 5. Nxe4 Be7 6. Bxf6 Bxf6 7. Nf3 Nc6 8. Bb5 (this was Tukmakov's move against Zelic, Pula 1999) b6 9. O-O Bb7 10. Re1 Qe7 11. d5 Na5 12. d6 cxd6 13. Nxd6 Kf8 14. Nxb7 Nxb7 15. Qxd7 Qxd7 16. Bxd7 Rd8 17. Bxe6 Nc5 18. c3 Nxe6 19. Rxe6 Kf7 20. Rae1 Rhe8 21. Rxe8 Rxe8 22. Rxe8 Kxe8 23. Nd4 Kd7 24. f3 g6 25. Kf2 Kd6 26. Nb5 Kc6 27. Nxa7 Kb7 28. Nb5 Kc6 29. Nd4 Kd5 30. Ke3 Bg5 31. Kd3 Bc1 32. c4 Kd6 33. b4 Ba3 34. Nb5 Kc6 35. Nxa3 h5 36. Kd4 g5 37. g3 g4 38. f4 h4 39. f5 hxg3 40. hxg3 b5 41. Nxb5 Kd7 42. Ke5 Ke7 43. c5 Kf7 44. c6 Ke8 45. c7 Kd7 46. f6 Kc8 47. Kd6 Kb7 48. Kd7 Kb6 49. a4 Ka6 50. c8=Q Kb6 51. Qc7 Ka6 52. Qa7 1-0 {Black checkmated}

Granted, this is not the same as a proper over-the-board game!

The Tukmakov game is mentioned in Beim's Understanding the Leningrad Dutch, page 32. He also gives lines for 7..., 0-0 and 7..., d6 after 7.Nf3, which are better for White. My opponent above happened to play 8..., b6 but never got time to castle long! Wink

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas

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HoemberChess God Member Offline Posts: 512 Location: Lake d4 on Planet Chess Joined: 10/08/07 Gender:	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #5 - 02/11/09 at 17:31:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Underlying ideas: 1)White originally hopes for this position, 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6. He doesn't want to swap any pieces off. But, sadly, Black doesn't have to cooperate and he can go 3..Be7 (instead of ..Nf6) in our original move order. 2)The move order prevents Black from getting a good Stonewall formation. (c1B is out) But, sadly, in this move order he can play 3..Be7 and ..d6 after the exchange of the bishops (instead of ..d5) and play something else. I am still looking for an anti-Dutch line after 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5. JonathanB wrote on 02/11/09 at 14:47:35: HoemberChess wrote on 02/11/09 at 07:36:09: Is 3.Bg5 (with the possible reply ..Be7) good enough?! Depends what you consider to be 'good enough' I suppose. I've faced this move a couple of times and have won fairly comfortably both times - although that likely says more about the fact I was rather stronger (ratingswise) than my opponents than it does about 3. Bg5 per se. I doubt it leads to a disadvantage for White but in principle why spend a couple of moves to swap a piece off (after 3. ... Be7)? Doesn't make sense to me.

	as W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc) B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]\| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]\| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6\| 1Nf3:c5
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JonathanB Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 449 Location: London Joined: 11/17/07 Gender:	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #4 - 02/11/09 at 14:47:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	HoemberChess wrote on 02/11/09 at 07:36:09: Is 3.Bg5 (with the possible reply ..Be7) good enough?! Depends what you consider to be 'good enough' I suppose. I've faced this move a couple of times and have won fairly comfortably both times - although that likely says more about the fact I was rather stronger (ratingswise) than my opponents than it does about 3. Bg5 per se. I doubt it leads to a disadvantage for White but in principle why spend a couple of moves to swap a piece off (after 3. ... Be7)? Doesn't make sense to me.

	www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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HoemberChess God Member Offline Posts: 512 Location: Lake d4 on Planet Chess Joined: 10/08/07 Gender:	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #3 - 02/11/09 at 09:09:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	I also think 2.e4 is the best move there, BUT: I want to play 2.Nf3 and not allow Black to play the French, which he probably gets most often. So, you suggest 3.d5? 3.g3, although being the best system vs. the Dutch in my opinion, too, is out of question because I also could go an early g3 after 1..f5, but I don't. Holbox wrote on 02/11/09 at 08:16:58: Good question. I have played 3.d5 like Killer's repertoire, 3.g3 going for dutch defence main lines and, at the moment, I'm playing 2.e4!? with the advance variation in mind. 3.d5 is a move which i haven't found too much challenging but with good surprise value. But i think you can't relay on this kind of move for life. 3.g3 is the better move. You should be patient white is better. Develop your pieces smoothly and expand on the queen side. You should look after what's going on on the king side and be prepared to cheap away the center in case black tries to overexpand. 2.e4 is also a good move, better than Nf3, I think. White is better after this but black has good counterattacking options. Is a matter of taste. Help yourself.

	as W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc) B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]\| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]\| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6\| 1Nf3:c5
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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #2 - 02/11/09 at 09:07:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	What about 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.e4, a deferred Staunton Gambit? I don't know much about this line, but there was an article about it in SOS. After 3...fe4 4.Ng5 Nf6 5.f3 Black has a few options (5...c5, 5...e3, 5...ef3, 5...h6). Personally I like the look of the most common line 5...c5 6.fe4 cd4 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.0-0 Bd6 best of all for Black, when I find it difficult to see full compensation for the invested pawn.

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Holbox Senior Member Offline Saigón Café Posts: 369 Joined: 02/08/05	Re: anti-Dutch line vs. 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 Reply #1 - 02/11/09 at 08:16:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Good question. I have played 3.d5 like Killer's repertoire, 3.g3 going for dutch defence main lines and, at the moment, I'm playing 2.e4!? with the advance variation in mind. 3.d5 is a move which i haven't found too much challenging but with good surprise value. But i think you can't relay on this kind of move for life. 3.g3 is the better move. You should be patient white is better. Develop your pieces smoothly and expand on the queen side. You should look after what's going on on the king side and be prepared to cheap away the center in case black tries to overexpand. 2.e4 is also a good move, better than Nf3, I think. White is better after this but black has good counterattacking options. Is a matter of taste. Help yourself.

	"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
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