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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) what should I play? (Read 11521 times)
kylemeister
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #15 - 03/24/09 at 22:05:49
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After 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c5 3. c3, it certainly isn't clear to me that 3...cd is better than 3...e6 (which I was always inclined to play there).
  
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MNb
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #14 - 03/24/09 at 21:44:25
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Watsonfox wrote on 03/24/09 at 17:49:01:
All this discussion about move orders is covered in David Vigorito's Play the Semi Slav. With him concluding that the slav move order is best. Something which I don't agree with so that is why I asked you guys.


As Vigorito is clearly stronger than most contributors here you should not be surprised to get some predictable answers. Still I maintain that the Noteboom is a nice and logical complement to the Semi-Slav.

When it comes to the Benoni - I am sure you will recognize the position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c3 cxd4 (objectively best) 4.cxd4. Also I don't think either the Benoni or the Dutch will serve well as a back up. Both are very demanding openings, in both pure memorizing and understanding. Saving them for must win situations is asking for trouble imo. But then again, who am I?
  

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Markovich
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #13 - 03/24/09 at 19:58:10
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Watsonfox wrote on 03/24/09 at 17:49:01:
All this discussion about move orders is covered in David Vigorito's Play the Semi Slav. With him concluding that the slav move order is best. Something which I don't agree with so that is why I asked you guys. As for not studying theory I find that patronising and insulting. I study other stuff as well e.g. Think like a Grandmaster and Endgame Strategy by Sherevsky and I think that theory is just another component in this study.


No offense intended.  I didn't mean you particularly, just a class of people that come here with not much playing strength and a whole lot of worry about chess opening theory.
  

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Watsonfox
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #12 - 03/24/09 at 17:49:01
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All this discussion about move orders is covered in David Vigorito's Play the Semi Slav. With him concluding that the slav move order is best. Something which I don't agree with so that is why I asked you guys. As for not studying theory I find that patronising and insulting. I study other stuff as well e.g. Think like a Grandmaster and Endgame Strategy by Sherevsky and I think that theory is just another component in this study.
  
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TN
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #11 - 03/24/09 at 00:51:47
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I overlooked two other move orders that Black can use to reach a Slav/Semi-Slav: 1.d4 e6 and 1.d4 c6. However, I only recommend them if you already play the French (for 1...e6) and the Caro-Kann (for 1...c6) since in both cases 2.e4 transposes to those openings. 

The 1...e6 move-order also allows you to expand your repertoire later. In the case of 1...e6, instead of playing 2...d5 against 2.c4 and 2.Nf3, you could add the Dutch to your repertoire with 2...f5, using this move order to avoid some Anti-Dutch lines. Or you could meet 2.c4 with 2...c5 to reach a Benoni-like position or 2...Bb4 to reach a Bogo-like position. 

The 1...c6 move-order doesn't offer any real transpositional advantages though, other than avoiding some of White's 2nd move alternatives after 1.d4 d5, since the Malinoise Defence (1.d4 c6 2.c4 b5) is not recommended.

On a final note, the Noteboom move order gives you the extra option of playing a Stonewall as well as the Semi-Slav (e.g. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3/Nf3 e6 4.e3 f5). Objectively White can probably claim a slight edge with the bayonet 5.g4 after 3.Nc3 and Avrukh's b3, Bb2, Qc1, Ba3 plan after 3.Nf3, so the Stonewall would be most effectively used as a back-up to add some variety in your Slav/Semi-Slav repertoire.
  

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Markovich
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #10 - 03/24/09 at 00:45:42
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kylemeister wrote on 03/23/09 at 23:02:55:
This has come up before; I too am not sure why a Semi-Slav player would find 4. Qc2 annoying.

I would also submit that players who are inclined to ask "what opening should I play"-type questions should not generally be concerned with matters like whether the Catalan (which contains some quite sharp lines, by the way) is "difficult to win against."  


Not only that, but most people coming here with "what system should I play" questions should not even be spending their time on theory, in the first place.  

As a matter of fact, this forum is getting pretty old with this stuff, again and again.  There should be a page to which we can direct these people.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #9 - 03/24/09 at 00:02:18
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[quote]I would also submit that players who are inclined to ask "what opening should I play"-type questions should not generally be concerned with matters like whether the Catalan (which contains some quite sharp lines, by the way) is "difficult to win against." [/quote]

I strongly agree. We have the same thing (or a related thing) on a current thread on countering the Reti, where 'TN', I think it was, made some perfectly sensible suggestions which were then ignored 'cos it seemed someone was looking for some wonder-recipe which just can't exist. You can't have everything you want out of the opening, whether as Black or as White, 'cos there's a *+~%ing opponent sitting opposite you! One thing I've noticed all my chess life is that really strong players appreciate that there are numerous occasions on which, especially as Black, you just have to play sound and reliable stuff, even if it doesn't appear to offer thrilling prospects, and then take your chances.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #8 - 03/23/09 at 23:02:55
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This has come up before; I too am not sure why a Semi-Slav player would find 4. Qc2 annoying.

I would also submit that players who are inclined to ask "what opening should I play"-type questions should not generally be concerned with matters like whether the Catalan (which contains some quite sharp lines, by the way) is "difficult to win against."
  
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MNb
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #7 - 03/23/09 at 22:13:17
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Watsonfox wrote on 03/23/09 at 17:39:17:
Thanks everyone. The problem with the noteboom move order is 4Qc2 which is annoying. Also the QGD move order allows the catalan which is also very hard to win against and promises white decent winning chances.


You are mistaken.
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.Qc2 Nf6 is a transposition to 2...c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qc2 and e6 is not a bad move. In fact it may transpose again to your beloved Semi-Slav if White plays 5.e3. Independent options are
1) 5.Bg5 Nbd7/Qa5+; the move Qc2 is premature in the Cambridge Springs.
2) 5.g3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 b5 which is an improved version of the Open Catalan.
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.g3 dxc4 is not a pure Catalan either.
And of course you don't have to play the Noteboom proper: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Nf6 is what you want.

The main problem of the Noteboom is the Marshall Gambit: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e4. But that one is not drawish at all.
« Last Edit: 03/24/09 at 01:27:58 by MNb »  

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nyoke
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #6 - 03/23/09 at 21:40:57
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And still the advice given (shuffle move-orders but stick to your opening) is very good...
  
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Watsonfox
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #5 - 03/23/09 at 17:39:17
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Thanks everyone. The problem with the noteboom move order is 4Qc2 which is annoying. Also the QGD move order allows the catalan which is also very hard to win against and promises white decent winning chances.
  
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thibdb13
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #4 - 03/23/09 at 12:32:46
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Watsonfox wrote on 03/22/09 at 16:58:12:
I normally play the semi-slav but I don't like to play it in must win games because of the exchange slav. Do you have any idea what I should play instead? I'm thinking of the Dutch or Modern Benoni. Also what books/DVDs should I get?

In each opening you will find a variation you do not like to play against. That's life. Going for the modern Benoni or the Dutch will not change anything to this constatation. 
The Modern Benoni is even worse than the Dutch because white can always refuse it from.
Now before choosing an opening for a must win situation, you should first answer the questions TN has asked.
If you are good in tactics, king's-side fianchetto opening could suit you.  Then you can choose between, for example, the possibly ugly positions of some dutch variations and the very easy to find plans of the Benoni/Benko. The Grünfeld and KID are also good opportunities for a tactical player.
If you like more passive but solid positions, you can go for e6 openings.
Another possibility, when afraid of the exchange variation, is to take the pawn on c4 and going for the QGA or the Slav.

Something I am always upset with is that many players think that they shouldp lay agressively from the very beginning in a must-win situation. Being patient, building a solid position, having clear plans and waiting for an inaccuracy of the opponent are often a better guarantee of winning than trying to sac 3 pawns and 2 pieces during the first 20 moves. And this rule is even more true for players used to play "calm" chess.
My conclusion: just try to play good in positions you feel comfortable with and never try without serious preparation something you never did before.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #3 - 03/23/09 at 08:10:46
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Watsonfox,

You can use the QGD move order to get to the Semi-Slav. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6. You can even try the Cambridge-Springs Variation which I think is really interesting.
  

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MNb
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #2 - 03/22/09 at 21:27:45
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Try the Noteboom: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 and 3...c6. It may still transpose to the Semi-Slav.
  

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TN
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Re: what should I play?
Reply #1 - 03/22/09 at 19:29:28
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Some points:

1) There was already a recent thread on this exact issue in the 'General Chess' thread - a quick search using the keywords 'must win' 'opening' should unveil it.

2) Before deciding on which opening to play as a second defence to 1.d4, consider the following:
  • Do you enjoy tactical battles or are you primarily a positional player? Or maybe a bit of both?
  • Do you have a good memory?
  • Do you like openings that have a wide variety of positions, or do you prefer opening systems, where you developing moves tend to be pretty similar?
  • Do you prefer open or closed positions?
  • How much time do you have available to study openings?


3) There are plenty of good Dutch and Benoni books on the market - again a quick search through the 'Nimzo and Benoni' and 'Daring Defences to 1.d4' Forum should reveal some resources.

4) At this stage learning different move-orders to reach the Semi-Slav is a plausible option. So since you play the Semi-Slav via. the move-order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6, you could also learn some of the alternative move orders: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3/Nf3 c6, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3/Nf3 e6, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5, meeting 3.Nc3 with 3...Bb4 and a Nimzo-Indian. Finally, the most cost-effective option may well be 1...Nf6 2.c4 c6, followed by 3...d5, although this order doesn't avoid the Exchange Slav.
  

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