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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black (Read 32823 times)
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #26 - 11/02/11 at 10:06:41
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downward wrote on 08/31/09 at 21:05:57:
Chebanenko Slav is definitely one of the most interesting openings around, but I don`t think it is that easy to play. 

if white so whishes, he can play cxd5 on the 4th move or any of the other moves, resulting in a symmetrical pawn structure, which doesn`t suit everyone.
but most importantly, black usually must play creatively not to end up in a passive position. Here two games of Kamsky from Ordix Open come to mind. (against Potkin and Sasikiran). these losses were a pretty depressing sight. so I don`t think it is enough for black just to get his pieces out and get a good game (comparing for instance to dxc4 Slav). 
In addition, after white plays c4-c5, the squares a5 and especially b6 are an easy target and black sometimes has to passively protect his b7 pawn till the end of the game.
also the move 4.-a6 is not a developing move, so in some lines black has to catch up in development. In a closed position this should not be a problem, but again, it doesn`t suit everyone. 
Another important thing is that after 4.-a6 many different positions can arise, so black should know something about many other systems (QGD, Semi-Slav for instance).

this doesn`t mean that Chebanenko is a bad opening, after all many players with active style of play adopted it - Kasparpv, Topalov, Ivanchuk, Movsesian, Kamsky, Volkov etc, but it requires great deal of knowledge, understanding and creativity.



As I see it, this flexibility is also what draws me to this system. I won't employ it regularly, but with understanding of the Chebanenko, I can also do the opposite, i.e. play ...a6 in the exchange Slav, or against an early e3.
  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #25 - 11/02/11 at 09:30:04
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I can't answer winawer77's question in Reply#24, 
I am only writing to back Gilmour's remarks of 2 years ago as to which one is the better choice (i.e. "NID/QID or Slav w/ ..a6") under certain level. 
I, too, think it is the former one.

Nevertheless, I am trying to learn both. 
With more theory for the Slav and more intuitive play for the NID/QID.
With more inclination to employ the Slav w/..a6, which I consider the drier, versus much stronger opponents, while the NID/QID, which I consider to be the more interesting choice, vs. lesser ones.
Because I am not yet sure that most of the opponents under IM level will know how to break the ultrasolid play in the Slav (w/ ..a6), when I just want to hold the position without weaknesses or much risk. I can play that way when I respect the opponent, and this "waiting mode" proved fruitful on past occasions.
I don't count on many main lines, so I will concentrate on side-lines first... (e3, Exchange, delayed Nf3--with, of course, early ..a6)
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #24 - 09/02/09 at 19:32:44
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The Chebanenko Slav is one of my all time favourite openings, and I still play it today. Bologan's book is of course excellent, as all New in Chess publications are. However, I do have a soft spot for Flear's excellent book and still refer to it regularly. Of course, its dated somewhat, but it crucially covers lines that Bologan doesn't. I'm referring to lines where White delays Nc3 or Nf3. Even Martin covers this in his DVD, and does it well.

I still think that 5.c5 is the crucial move, especially in that everything except 5...Nbd7 has been found wanting. Martin recommends 5...Bg4 in his DVD as presents some good games. Its certainly playable, but I wouldn't use it as a main repertoire choice in a FIDE open where preparation plays a part.

A new twist on an established variation came to my attention this month in the 1.d4 d5 update - Eljanov - Sokolov, which started 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 a6 5. e3 b5 6. c5 g6 7. Ne5!?.....looks dangerous, no?  Undecided
  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #23 - 08/31/09 at 21:05:57
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Chebanenko Slav is definitely one of the most interesting openings around, but I don`t think it is that easy to play. 

if white so whishes, he can play cxd5 on the 4th move or any of the other moves, resulting in a symmetrical pawn structure, which doesn`t suit everyone.
but most importantly, black usually must play creatively not to end up in a passive position. Here two games of Kamsky from Ordix Open come to mind. (against Potkin and Sasikiran). these losses were a pretty depressing sight. so I don`t think it is enough for black just to get his pieces out and get a good game (comparing for instance to dxc4 Slav). 
In addition, after white plays c4-c5, the squares a5 and especially b6 are an easy target and black sometimes has to passively protect his b7 pawn till the end of the game.
also the move 4.-a6 is not a developing move, so in some lines black has to catch up in development. In a closed position this should not be a problem, but again, it doesn`t suit everyone. 
Another important thing is that after 4.-a6 many different positions can arise, so black should know something about many other systems (QGD, Semi-Slav for instance).

this doesn`t mean that Chebanenko is a bad opening, after all many players with active style of play adopted it - Kasparpv, Topalov, Ivanchuk, Movsesian, Kamsky, Volkov etc, but it requires great deal of knowledge, understanding and creativity.


  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #22 - 08/17/09 at 05:20:05
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If it was good enough to get the seal of approval from Kasparov, not to mention other GMs who are known for their uncompromising play, I'd say its probably good enough to play for a win at the club level.  Wouldn't worry so much about it.  Maybe play over some annotated games, and see if you like the positions Black gets.   

That said, I will say that, imho, you sometimes -- thinking here in particular about the 5.e3 b5 lines -- get into positions where White has a choice of playing on the queenside or in the center, whereas Black's active play is pretty much limited to  trying to get in the ..e5 break.  So you can feel like you're back on your heels sometimes.  But its not that easy to break down the Black position and when White tries to do so, Black usually finds enough counterplay.

  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #21 - 08/17/09 at 02:43:41
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saubhikr wrote on 05/11/09 at 21:52:45:
Gilmour,
Your comments are revealing. I could feel the experience. I went through some recent games in Slav. It seems, major part of the game, black is just equalizing or playing an equal game. Yes, black wins but that needs much more and needs help from white. I have started thinking it won't suit me. I do not have the skill or technique to outplay slightly weaker players from symmetircal & equal positions (thats why I am still a 1980 rated).

I find your post here a bit odd. I mean, what are you looking for as black, if you don't want an equal game? With perfect play by white, I don't think there is any black opening that provides better than that. Perhaps what you mean, is you want something more unbalanced / complex / messy? Or something white can't simplify down easily? I'm not sure.
  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #20 - 08/13/09 at 03:47:53
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I started playing the ...a6 Slav after buying IM Andrew Martin's topical DVD on it. I find however, my main problem is not players who smash me with GM level innovative variations, but that they tend to combine variations, in a rather unexpected way. 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3 a6 (I didn't know this was now considered bad for Black; can anyone give me some games or info on all the latest developments across the whole picture of the ...a6?) 5. c5 for example, is particularly senseless, and it took me a while to figure how to play this. 

Even more common is 5. Nf3 Bf5 6. cxd5 which is totally useless for White! I played a guy rated roughly 1850 tonight and he had nothing on me. I agree that perhaps in weekend congresses or rapids it can be a slightly odd choice of opening, but if you work hard you will find it easy to pounce on inaccuracies from lower rated opponents, and isn't that what chess is all about anyways; exploiting tiny imbalances? It worked for Capablanca Karpov and Smyslov Smiley

I find such attempts at subvariation transposition relatively easy to diffuse; tactics can abound though. As far as winning chances, well, tactically the variation mentioned above with 6...cxd5 7. Qb3 can be particularly fruitful against an overly confident White; and I won my first ever Cheb slav game in 21 moves, plenty of good positions since online against 1600-1700s Smiley
  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #19 - 05/12/09 at 08:39:31
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Hi Souvik,

I don´t think that Nimzo/QID is too much theory for an amateur to be studied. At least not more than any other major defence to 1.d4. 
Nimzo/QID is a huge theoretical field - may be - but you don´t have to know everything and the big advantage in Nimzo/QID defence is one can choose sidelines that are still sound. And never to forget that the white player has to know even more. Take the classical variation with Q c2 - the latest book from Vigorito I guess has something about 250 + pages. "Congratulations" for the white player who wants to master this system. 
So what I can recommend are following sidelines
d4 Nf6 c4 e6 Nc3 Bb4 e3 Bxc3 (a friend of mine (2200+) plays this with very good results; theory tells one must wait for white playing a3 but I believe that taking the Knight at once is possible. Look at the Hübner-variation to get an idea, what pawn structure, you should strive for.)
An additional alternative may be: d4 Nf6 c4 e6 Nc3 Bb4 e3 Ne4 - see also QID: e3-variation.
d4 Nf6 c4 e6 Nc3 Bb4 Qc2 Nc6  (you said you´ve already played Tango ?!)
d4 Nf6 c4 e6 Nc3 Bb4 Nf3 d6

These are the systems in my practice I meet most often. No problems for black what so ever. 

QID:
d4 Nf6 c4 e6 Nf3 b6 g3 Ba6 b3 b5 - get Greet´s book - 20 pages on this system. 
d4 Nf6 c4 e6 Nf3 b6 e3 Ne4
d4 Nf6 c4 e6 Nf3 b6 a3 Ba6 Qc2 b5

For the above mentioned systems take half an hour each day for two months and I promise you no problems at least at 2000 level. What you don´t know you can solve by normal chess knowledge.

Greetings and all the best

Gilmour

Ah wait - odd Catalan - I´ve got another "silly" system:
d4 Nf6 c4 e6 g3 b6 Bg2 c6 Nf3 d5 b3 Bb4+
look at the game: Ramos Ernesto - Zambrana Oswal to get an idea what structure can develop - especially the Réti - idea: Rac8-c7; Qa8 and opening the long diagonal. 
  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #18 - 05/11/09 at 21:52:45
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Gilmour,
Your comments are revealing. I could feel the experience. I went through some recent games in Slav. It seems, major part of the game, black is just equalizing or playing an equal game. Yes, black wins but that needs much more and needs help from white. I have started thinking it won't suit me. I do not have the skill or technique to outplay slightly weaker players from symmetircal & equal positions (thats why I am still a 1980 rated). Nimzo/QID, though demands more but I guess will be better choice.

Thanx
Souvik
  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #17 - 05/11/09 at 19:26:49
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Hi saubhikr,

I play also 1.d4 with white; Nc6-french, Bf5-Caro-Kann and Qd6-Scandinavian against 1.e4 and used to play Slav, a6-Slav and Queens gambit accepted (Bg4-variations) to get similar pawn structures as often as possible. 
Completely satisfied with my results with 1.d4 and even more with my repertoire against 1.e4 on the other hand I never managed to handle Slav and even more Chebanenko to get enough winning chances.
Weaker players always chose the exchange variation and positional gurus strangled me with 3./4. e3.  Some day I was no longer keen on taking more and more risk to unbalance the game to get winning chances - and loosing games by risking to much. 
I now play nimzoindian and queens indian and can really recommend it. Sharp enough to beat weaker players an robust enough to hold against stronger players. Dearing´s "play the nimzoindian" and greet´s "play the queens indian" are good books in my view and are  for our level of 2050+ totally sufficient. And I don´t see that Slav defence, especially a6-Slav has less theory than the nimzoindian/queensindian complex. Most players are scared stiff to play against the nimzo, so concentrate first on the queensindian an get happy a life time. Take Greet´s Ba6/b5-variation or Tiviakov´s Na6/c5-variation (resembles more Benoni) to sharpen the game. 

And as a bonus you also get an easy repertoire against the english. Most oponents will play the Mikenas variation: c4 Nf6 Nc3 e6 e4 - but now instead of d5 or c5  test e6-e5, a move which is sound in my view.

So think twice to choose Slav; better keep the good old nimzo.

Regards

Gilmour
  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #16 - 04/20/09 at 20:34:32
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I've been playing the slav for years now and am particularly tired of the Quiet Variation and the Exchange that Allow black really no winning chances if white wants a draw. For these reasons i've been searching for a second main weapon.
  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #15 - 04/20/09 at 09:34:12
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Roger Williamson wrote on 04/18/09 at 13:59:09:
...  It's a perverse claim that the exchange with a6 gives  greater scope for 'interesting' play when, in a normal Slav, Black has so many more options.  In this respect it's possible to hone a pet line against the exchange when you're intending to relieve the tension with 4...dxc4.  4... a6 5. cd is a bottleneck where most Black deviations seem to be markedly inferior, now.
...
 


Roger, 

You have nailed my response to the ...a6 Slav on the head.  All the books covering the Chebanenko that I've seen (most notably, Graham Burgess') downplay the Exchange Slav as transposing to lines that give Black little trouble.  Yet it is precisely in those waters that I have caught the most fish.

Cheers!
  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #14 - 04/18/09 at 19:46:07
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Flear's book has an expansive chapter on 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 a6 5. e3 b5 6. cd cd  which Bologan's does not.  He also devotes separate chapters to move order issues regarding White's commitment of his Knights to Nf3 and c3 respectively.

All the old opening book caveats apply, but it's still good.

Rogozenko's chessbase cd on the Slav is also useful, offering a good overview.
  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #13 - 04/18/09 at 18:50:02
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Nobody answered me whether ...a6 Slav by Flear is stiil good and what books/DVDs I should use for preparing a6 slav (apart from Bologan's)
  
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Re: Does a6 slav gives enough winning chance to black
Reply #12 - 04/18/09 at 13:59:09
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You share that sentiment, in my experience, with august company.  Of the three players 2400-2510 I have ventured Slav against not one has allowed the a6 mainline.  Of course their choices are indicative of the style and character of play of the Ims and Gms in question, and possibly of their facing a vastly inferior opponent, but still, my preparation has been for naught in the face of 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3.

 4... Bf5 in that position is part of my repertoire on account of the time saving transposition from Colle to Slav after 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 Bf5/Bg4, but out of sheer frustration I played 4... a6 anyway, despite its mooted inferiority, both occasions very strong players put me in that position.

 The comparison with the Petroff is probably unfair, as nothing is as gruelling, from my perspective, as 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Qe2 or 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Nc3  and the like.  Not even 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 a6 5. cd cd 6. Bf4 Nc6 7. e3 Bg4 with Black playing Bd6 and Bxf3, where quite often tense games can result, and a familiarity with the levers and mechanisms of that inescapable middlegame should leave Black reasonably confident of capitalizing on any sloppy play by White.

 Instead of 7. e3, I used to struggle horribly against 7.Rc1 by blithely following Rogozenko's recommendation of 7... Ne4.  After 8. e3 Nxc3 9.bc it would be nothing but strife.  Bologan gives 7... e6 as the best response, the mainline.  It's a perverse claim that the exchange with a6 gives  greater scope for 'interesting' play when, in a normal Slav, Black has so many more options.  In this respect it's possible to hone a pet line against the exchange when you're intending to relieve the tension with 4...dxc4.  4... a6 5. cd is a bottleneck where most Black deviations seem to be markedly inferior, now.

 With theory expanding in Vigus's chosen line I can't see that the mainlines of a6 should be any the harder to keep up with, and if positions like 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 or the exchange are anathema to you, then the Slav has very little to recommend it at all.  Maybe one has to be of a dour disposition to play this as an amateur.
  
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