Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) open games for improving players (Read 6285 times)
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10778
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: open games for improving players
Reply #11 - 05/28/09 at 02:53:44
Post Tools
downward wrote on 05/27/09 at 12:23:42:

Most importantly, I want to play several openings in which I can specialize, for instance French/QGD or Caro-Kann (Petroff)/Slav etc.
There are people with quite narrow repertoire and have become great players (Vaganian, Volkov).
but  I never studied open games.


Then the Petrov may satisfy both of your needs, especially as you will meet 2nd move deviations like the KG quite often.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1757
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: open games for improving players
Reply #10 - 05/27/09 at 23:54:57
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 05/27/09 at 12:37:14:
I've moved this here because it has nothing to do with the theory of 1.e4 e5, but rather with what systems are suitable for chess improvement.


Actually, I would propose a new section entitled "Why you must play 1...e5"  Surely there are enough threads preaching this theme to justify such an independent section by now.

On a more serious note, to this debate I might add,  that 1...e5 is also advocated by many for the reason of  benefit to be gained from playing the closed Ruy Lopez. 

In "The Ruy Lopez: A Guide for Black", Leif Johannessen wrote that the Soviets "advised all aspiring chess players early in their careers  to play the Ruy Lopex with both colours as they would then be exposed to almost every kind of position - closed, semi-closed and open and with all kind of pawn formations." He also mentioned that Capablanca said that "the Ruy Lopez is the cornerstone of understanding positional play." 

Nigel Daives  wrote in his "Play 1 e4 e5!" that he was told by Soviet GM Lev Pskhis that "an essential grounding in the Ruy Lopez was essential if you want to develop your game". He further claimed that a switch to playing 1...e5 was a key role in his finally gaining the GM title. (Of course, iti notable that in the same book, he advocates one of the least classical approaches to playing the Ruy Lopez as Black, but I digress here.) Note, Davies was already an IM when he made the switch, so he was not exactly a young beginner. 

Of course, both of those authors were trying to sell  1...e5 repertoire books. And, I mention all of this without any particular conviction. My feeble chess mind is at a loss to understand why the Ruy Lopez should have a special and unique place in cultivating positional understanding that could not be gained by say...the Nimzo-Indian. But maybe this is just one of those things every Russian schoolboy knows and part of the reason  perhaps that is why I am just a lowly patzer. 

  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FischerTal
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love Chess Books

Posts: 307
Location: England
Joined: 04/11/08
Re: open games for improving players
Reply #9 - 05/27/09 at 17:08:16
Post Tools
I think it is important from a broadening your  chess culture point of view to try open games for a while.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
downward
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 38
Location: Weymouth, United Kingdom
Joined: 04/22/09
Re: open games for improving players
Reply #8 - 05/27/09 at 12:59:32
Post Tools
thanks Markovich, your reply was really helpful. sometimes it is confusing when each chess teacher advocated different approach. and because I study on my own, I want to be on the right path (regarding my own strengths/weaknesses of course). I think I will always have the dilemma of which openings to play /study as I like almost all of them.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: open games for improving players
Reply #7 - 05/27/09 at 12:37:14
Post Tools
I've moved this here because it has nothing to do with the theory of 1.e4 e5, but rather with what systems are suitable for chess improvement.

@downward: I don't advocate play of 1...e5 as an end in itself, but merely as a device that young and improving players should use to bring open positions onto the board.  There are many ways of doing that, of course, not only playing 1...e5.  For instance I advocate that young players should specialize in the Tarrasch Defense.  But the important thing is to know how to play open positions.  Knowing the theory of whatever systems one plays becomes important as one gets stronger, but I am vastly more concerned that my students grasp the principles of play than that they know their theory.

I think that by the time someone is about as strong as you are, they should already know how to play open positions very well.  Only if they don't would I advocate that they make an effort to play into more of them.  Also by that time, a player who has specialized in open positions should start branching out and learning, for example, how to play the French and the King's Indian.

If you look at Morphy's "brilliant" games you'll see that they're actually very straightforward applications of general principles of play in open positions.  If you're able to produce similarly "brilliant" games in similar positions (and it really is not that difficult to be "brilliant" once your opponent squanders a tempo or two, the way Morphy's did), then by all means, consider that aspect of your chess education complete.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
downward
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 38
Location: Weymouth, United Kingdom
Joined: 04/22/09
Re: open games for improving players
Reply #6 - 05/27/09 at 12:23:42
Post Tools
thank you for your answers. I would like to clarify - I am already 29, FIDE ELO 2031, but my problem is I like to play all kinds of openings without studying them actually. For the last several years, in my league OTB games I have played 1.e4 together with Queens Gambit, English and Reti as white, and as black it has been Najdorf, Petroff, Ruy Lopez, French, Pirc against 1.e4 and Grunfeld, KID, Queens Gambit against 1.d4. 
the thing is I have never studied any opening (I only quickly play through grandmaster games, that`s all) and I bought my first opening book several months ago as I decided I would like to study chess thoroughly finally.
to be honest, I enjoy all these openings, but I realized I am more a positional player, that`s why I would like to create a more positional repertoire.
Most importantly, I want to play several openings in which I can specialize, for instance French/QGD or Caro-Kann (Petroff)/Slav etc.
There are people with quite narrow repertoire and have become great players (Vaganian, Volkov).
but  I never studied open games, I started to play English/Reti as white and Semi-closed games as black rather soon (but never abandoned 1.e4 with white and 1.-e5 with black completely).
I think I should have played only open games for much longer to be better at tactics atc. My aim is to reach 2400 one day (whether this is realistic is another mather). so do you think that I should get back to playing open games as black before building a repertoire with semi-open games which suit me more? (I am not saying I don`t like playing open games, but in semi-closed or closed I feel more safe).
I reckon Markovich would say :"sure, go back to open games", but I am still hesitating because I would like to start studying French/QGD as soon as possible.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
zoo
Ex Member


Re: open games for improving players
Reply #5 - 04/23/09 at 09:01:18
Post Tools
Then you'd be surprised to hear that Reti made a living with the King's Gambit, one of the most open games! Without resolving to such extremes, it is important for an improving player not to develop a "fear for tactics", ant not to lock into one opening system. No need to bother with opening theory, but try at least to put some variety in your first moves!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
downward
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 38
Location: Weymouth, United Kingdom
Joined: 04/22/09
Re: open games for improving players
Reply #4 - 04/22/09 at 19:35:39
Post Tools
thanks for the answers, I surely agree that studying how to play open positions is fundamental. in my question I referred only to open openings in particular. I am not a beginner, but the very first chess book I had was one on Reti - and that`s why from the very beginning I was playing the Reti opening (and others similar) and I was intuitively afraid of open positions, which I don`t think was a good start.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: open games for improving players
Reply #3 - 04/22/09 at 18:38:26
Post Tools
downward wrote on 04/22/09 at 16:46:47:
I`ve seen here several times the opinion that improving players should begin with studying and playing open games - to learn about tactics, initiative etc... 
I agree with this, but what if someone doesn`t like playing open games? let`s say can he play Sicilian as black (also full of tactics) and closed games with white. I mean if he wants to play open games on a certain level, he must study them. buy why dedicate much time to studying opening that one will eventually abandon anyway?


The short answer is that open positions are fundamental because closed and semi-open positions can become open, but the reverse is not the case.  Indeed in most closed and semi-open positions, the play revolves around the question of whether, and how best, to open the position.  So if you are not a good player of open positions, in my opinion, you have a very serious chess problem.  I don't claim this idea as my own, since I believe dates at least to Euwe. 

Not liking open positions is like not liking endings.  The game has a tendency to go that way anyway, so you'd better learn to like it.  If you start out with 1.Nf3, 1.c4, 1.g3 or 1.d4, for example, someone can always play the Tarrasch on you.

No less than Jacob Aagaard, who is a much stronger player than I -- to put it mildly -- and also a very fine author of instructional books, has expressed some disagreement, but I am not sure just what he thinks, and in any case, I respectfully maintain my opinion. 

Well, that turned out to be a longer answer than I intended.  I'm afraid that no one on this board can accuse me of undue brevity.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
urusov
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 147
Location: Kenilworth
Joined: 08/04/05
Re: open games for improving players
Reply #2 - 04/22/09 at 18:23:06
Post Tools
I begin to think that the best "first opening book" is just the biggest encyclopedia of openings you can carry or afford -- MCO, NCO, ECO, BCO, take your pick.  Then just play around with whatever openings interest you or catch your fancy.  My experience is that you will naturally begin to develop preferences, and as you learn what you like, you can purchase more specialized and advanced books.

Of course, the danger is that you won't get beyond the first third of the book and so you will end up playing only the openings in that section.  My own first experience was with Horowitz's "Chess Openings: Theory and Practice," which explains why I fell for the Urusov: it was the first opening the book discussed and I never got beyond that...  Smiley

So I agree: there is no need for someone to play open games just because that's what beginners "should do."  It is good for beginners to try out lots of things and play lots of games to get lots of ideas -- some of which might translate between lines.  Best, in fact, if they do not specialize right away but just learn.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
trw
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1414
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: open games for improving players
Reply #1 - 04/22/09 at 16:52:58
Post Tools
I think this thread already answers your question in a roundabout way: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1239044212

also I would note abandoning open games your main theme does not mean abandoning the principles therein. For closed games must often open up for any advantage to be realized.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
downward
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 38
Location: Weymouth, United Kingdom
Joined: 04/22/09
open games for improving players
04/22/09 at 16:46:47
Post Tools
I`ve seen here several times the opinion that improving players should begin with studying and playing open games - to learn about tactics, initiative etc... 
I agree with this, but what if someone doesn`t like playing open games? let`s say can he play Sicilian as black (also full of tactics) and closed games with white. I mean if he wants to play open games on a certain level, he must study them. buy why dedicate much time to studying opening that one will eventually abandon anyway?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo