Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/20/09 at 05:24:44:


After 23...Nd7 24.Rxa5 Nxe5 I certainly would not give a draw if White offered it, would you?  On the other hand, I don't think White would be unhappy to accept if Black offered. You may be right that technically, it's drawn; I don't have the skill or knowledge necessary to judge that.

After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.O-O-O Bd6 10.Be5 O-O 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Qxe4 f6 13.Rhe1 Re8 (13...Bb4 may be best) 14.g4, what do you say to 14...Bb4 with the idea 15.c3 Bxc3 16.bxc3 fxe5 and now 17.Nxe5 Nd7 or 17.dxe5 Qe7?

I think what I said about 6.Bd3 is that is not that it loses, but that it's a dubious move because it offers to bring off White's best attacker.  For the time being, I maintain that opinion.

Quote:


My claim that the line were good for White was exaggerated, but so was your suggestion above that 6.Bd3 would lose. Can we agree that both sides are fine after 23.Ra7 a4 24.c4, or 23...Nd7 24.Rxa5? Or do you want to win an ending like g4 (white) vs g5 (black), with 2N vs R ?

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.0-0-0 Be7 10.h4 Nbd7 11.h5 Qa5 12.Ne5 Nxe5 13.Bxe5 h6. Here my last post had 14.Rdf1. Maybe 14.Qg3 is an alternative: 14...Rg8 15.Rdf1 0-0-0 16.a3 Rdf8 17.Kb1 Nd7 18.Bf4 Nb6 19.Rf2 Nc4 20.Qd3 Qa6 (20...Nxb2 =; 20...b5 21.Bc1) 22.Bh2 Bh4 23.Rf3 f5 24.a4 Bg5 25.Ka2 and White has full compensation for the pawn. 

Analyzing 6.Bd3 I have the feeling that White can vary his plans and still retain sufficient compensation. 6.Ne5 may be sound, I don't know. But here I can understand Uruk's doubts, the move seems too risky.

Stefan, you gave 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.0-0-0 Bd6 10.Be5 Bxe5 11.dxe5 Qxd3 12.Rxd3 Nd5 13.Ne4 b5 14.Nd4 0-0 15.Rf1 a6 16.Nc5 Ra7 17.Rdf3 and so forth.

That's a long line and not forcing. I think that Black might improve with 15...Ne7 (intending 16.Nc5 a5) or 15...a5 (intending 16.Nc5 Ne7) instead of 15...a6.  No doubt White has better activity, but I'm not sure if it translates into anything.  Meanwhile Black has his pawn and at least won't have to worry about his king.

Further 10...0-0 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Qxe4 f6 13.Bg3 (or 13.h4 Qe7) 13...Qe7 and I am not at all sure that White has enough to carry though with anything.

Markovich wrote on 05/18/09 at 12:36:20:


See my reply #37. Sorry for my mistake regarding the move numbers, so please read 10...Bxe5 for 11...Bxe5, and so on. The explanation is that in my file I still have the inaccurate move-order 6.Bd3 Bg6?! 7.Qe2?! Bxd3 8.Qxd3, which added a move for both sides.

Fine, so what about 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.0-0-0 Bd6 10.Be5 Bxe5?

Stefan, 

Thank you for providing the diagram.   

All, 

I am overwhelmed
   by the number of positions 
you quote in one post. 

     So I will leave with this ragged verse in time 
and let others do the wandering.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/17/09 at 19:00:02:


Well, we should discuss the rights and wrongs of that either in another thread or perhaps here after we have dispensed with 6.Bd3.  But one thing I am very much not impressed by is statistics in these gambit systems, so we'll eventually have to get into the actual chess of it.  Black of course plays 8...c6.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/17/09 at 19:00:02:


Ah, now I see that.  But I wonder why Black was made to play either 10...Be7 or 10...Bc7.  Why should he fear 10...0-0? For that matter, why can't Black just concede d6 outright and play 10...Bxe5 11.dxe5 (I assume your plan is not to play a pawn down with no bishops on the board) 11...Qxd3 12.Rxd3 Nd5 13.Ne4 b5, after which I doubt that White's sinking a knight into d6 is really going to help him very much.  Black is not without play of his own, for instance eventually ...Nd7, ...Ne7, ...Ng6.

@Uruk: Yeah, I understand the point of ...Be6, I just think that ...Bg6 is a strong move.  Further after 6.Ne5, 6...e6 does happen to be a line.  If you like Black in the first diagram, you and I have very different ideas of how to play chess.  But in general I think you're too shy about asserting Black's chances.  He's a pawn up and has no weaknesses, for crying out loud.  Should it bother him that White has some pressure down the e- and f-files?  

Stefan says that if White is more active and Black has no pawn breaks in the near future, White has comp.  Well fine, the only problem is that Black is a pawn up and the course of a chess game is not limited to the next ten moves.  In such a position I am very happy to shift my pieces around and eventually find some way to simplify.  Without a clear plan for White, there is no way I would want his side of it.  (I myself am by no means reluctant to gambit a pawn, by the way, just not my e-pawn on move two unless Black's first move is 1...f5).