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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6 (Read 50047 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #65 - 05/29/09 at 07:00:07
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Stefan, why does Black have to play 9...Na6?  It looks slow, cumbersome and unthreatening.  I prefer an immediate 9...Be7 unless there's some tactical reason against it.  

This seems to be yet another classic case of White claiming compensation for a lost pawn because... he lost a pawn.

I ran some variations through Fritz and came up with the same answers:  as long as Black is even moderately careful, White can only hope for one of two results.  So I don't see why this "compensation" is worth the effort of all this analysis.   

White does have some play for the pawn, but in most cases he's just down a pawn after trying for a few cute tactical shots.  Sounds like the same old BDG story all over again.
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #64 - 05/28/09 at 18:32:25
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(1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.0-0-0) 9...Na6 10.a3 Nc7 11.h4. Perhaps best. 11...Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.Ne5 Ncd5 14.Kb1 0-0. So far my last post. White has some compensation, but I wasn't sure whether it is enough. So let's try: 15.g4 Nxc3+ 16.Qxc3 Nd5 17.Qe1 f6 18.Nc4 Qd7 19.g5 and White has full compensation for the pawn.
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #63 - 05/28/09 at 16:22:49
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Well does anyone want to pursue 6.Bd3 further here, or should we now move on to a consideration of 6.Ne5?  Or am I the only one still interested in the merit of 5...Bf5?
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #62 - 05/21/09 at 17:00:05
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Markovich wrote on 05/21/09 at 12:15:25:
I think we may have to agree to disagree on the adequacy of White's compensation after 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.O-O-O Bd6 10.Be5 O-O 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Qxe4 f6 13.Rhe1 Bb4 14.c3 (interesting is 14.d5 cxd5 15.Qxb4 fxe5, but I believe it favors Black after 16.Nxe5 Na6 or 16.Qg4 Qd6) 14...Bxc3 15.bxc3 fxe5 16.Qg4. 13...Re8 is obviously a worse version of a similar idea, and I won't defend further this move, particularly since I didn't propose it.

After 16.Qg4, there may follow 16...Qe7 17.Rxe5 Rf6 18.Ng5 Nd7 19.Rxe6 Rxe6 20.Qxe6+ Qxe6 21.Nxe6 Re8 22.d5 =. Okay, I hate this primitive treatment, too. It is only to demonstrate that there is some real compensation. May others find subtler ideas.

Markovich wrote on 05/21/09 at 12:15:25:
Something else with which White has to contend after 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.O-O-O is 9...Na6 with the idea ...Nb4-d5, or if 10.a3, then 10...Nc7 intending ...Nd5.  That looks pretty solid to me, even if somewhat troglodytic.  If White's bishop wants to escape to g5, then Black's develops on e7.

Very interesting - a slower approach, since the faster 9...Bd6 and 9...Be7 (which you call "passive") both give White concrete targets. In some lines you may even combine the troglodytic and the passive element, it may still be good: 10.Ne5 (hopes for Nxc6) Nb4 11.Qe2 Be7! (better than 11...Nbd5 12.Nxd5 = Nxd5?! 13.Rhf1!) and Black's pieces are better coordinated than White's. 

And if 10.a3 Nc7, White is left guessing about Black's plan: 
(a) 11.h4 Bd6! 12.Bxd6 (12.Be5 would now be pointless) Qxd6 13.Ne5 Ncd5 14.Kb1 0-0.
(b) 11.Kb1 Be7! (better than 11...Ncd5?! 12.Nxd5 Nxd5 13.Be5). 
(c) 11.Be5 Ncd5 13.Rhe1 Be7 followed by Qa5, b5...

So I don't know. Your troglodytic idea looks ingeniously strong. After 9...Na6 White's active pieces are more impressive than ever, but is there anything concrete that White can do?
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #61 - 05/21/09 at 16:56:42
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No prawlem mon!  Grin
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #60 - 05/21/09 at 16:54:29
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TonyRo wrote on 05/21/09 at 16:18:13:
I am not this "strong player" you speak of Markovich, but my intuition tells me that with White's majority on the queenside, he should be fine, although maybe optically it looks like Black should be better. I putzed around pushing wood in this ending for a while and was never really able to come up with any real ideas for either side. Rybka thinks it's equal, though given the fact that it's an ending and there's a material imbalance it means almost nothing. Curious, I ran a Monte Carlo Analysis, and out of 700 games, it was something like +75 =588 -37.


Thanks, that's useful.  If that has any validity, dead equal is right, I guess.  My own assumption was that my more central king should count for something, plus 2N should be a little better than R+P.  Plus the knights are centrally placed.  Ah well.
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #59 - 05/21/09 at 16:18:13
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I am not this "strong player" you speak of Markovich, but my intuition tells me that with White's majority on the queenside, he should be fine, although maybe optically it looks like Black should be better. I putzed around pushing wood in this ending for a while and was never really able to come up with any real ideas for either side. Rybka thinks it's equal, though given the fact that it's an ending and there's a material imbalance it means almost nothing. Curious, I ran a Monte Carlo Analysis, and out of 700 games, it was something like +75 =588 -37.
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #58 - 05/21/09 at 12:15:25
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Stefan,

I enjoy these very specific chess discussions, too few of which occur in these forums (outside of Dragons, anyway).  I very much appreciate your participation.

I think we may have to agree to disagree on the adequacy of White's compensation after 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.O-O-O Bd6 10.Be5 O-O 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Qxe4 f6 13.Rhe1 Bb4 14.c3 (interesting is 14.d5 cxd5 15.Qxb4 fxe5, but I believe it favors Black after 16.Nxe5 Na6 or 16.Qg4 Qd6) 14...Bxc3 15.bxc3 fxe5 16.Qg4. 13...Re8 is obviously a worse version of a similar idea, and I won't defend further this move, particularly since I didn't propose it.

I'm surprised by your judgment of that ending, but for all I know, it is correct.  I'd be interested to hear any other strong player's opinion of it.  And of course yes, White has options earlier; I'm just not sure how much they lead to.  

Something else with which White has to contend after 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.O-O-O is 9...Na6 with the idea ...Nb4-d5, or if 10.a3, then 10...Nc7 intending ...Nd5.  That looks pretty solid to me, even if somewhat troglodytic.  If White's bishop wants to escape to g5, then Black's develops on e7.

@Uruk:  Yes, I knew what you were talking about. I just think that in specific positions, more specific argumentation, e.g. analysis, is much more useful.  I think that you and I have rather different ideas of how to play chess, though.  I consider 9...Be7 to be an excessively passive move, for example.
« Last Edit: 05/21/09 at 13:47:39 by Markovich »  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #57 - 05/21/09 at 11:12:40
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MNb wrote on 05/21/09 at 10:27:53:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/21/09 at 04:51:39:
@Uruk: You give 6...Bg6 7.Bg6 hg6: 8.Qe2 c6 ..... Instead I'd prefer 9.Bg5 e6 10.0-0-0, for example 10...Be7 11.h4

I doubt White's compensation after 11...Nbd7 plan 12...Qa5 and 13...0-0-0. This looks too much like a Caro-Kann (4...Bf5) with an extra pawn for Black.

11...Nbd7 12.Kb1 Qc7
12...Qa5 13.Ne5 (a) 13...Nxe5 14.dxe5 Nd5 15.Ne4, or 14...Nd7 15.Bxe7 Kxe7 16.Rhe1 threatens 17.Qd2!. (b) 13...Nd5 14.Nxd5 Qxd5 (14...cxd5 15.Nxg6!) 15.Bxe7 Kxe7 16.c4 Qd6 (16...Qa5 17.Nxd7 Kxd7 18.d5) 17.Rhf1 Nf6 18.Qe1 Raf8 19.g4.  
13.Rhf1 Rd8 14.Ne1 b5 15.Nd3 b4 16.Ne4 Qa5 17.g4

The pawn structure is the same as in my ChessCafe BDG article, Gutman's Variation. Then White played Nf3-h4xg6 to get rid of the best black defensive piece, here it is Bf1-d3xg6. If you ask me, the Nf3 is a more valuable piece in such a situation than the Bb3. 

But you said that you intended to castle long, so let's look at 11...Nbd7 12.Kb1 Qa5 13.Ne5 Rf8 14.Rhf1 0-0-0 15.g4 Kb8 16.Nxf7 Rxf7 17.Qxe6 Rdf8 18.Bxf6 Nxf6 19.g5 =.

Maybe there is an advantage for White hidden in a sub-line. I am only trying to demonstrate that an open f-file can be just as valuable as a pawn. Most of what I wrote in that article about Black's problems with the pawn structure e6/f7/g7/g6 is true in our situation, too. To me it is obvious that these four pawns are not better than Whites three pawns d4, g2 and h4. Which pawn breaks does Black have? Compare that to White's many dynamic options (d4-d5, g2-g4, h4-h5, Nxf7, Nxg6).
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #56 - 05/21/09 at 10:27:53
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/21/09 at 04:51:39:
@Uruk: You give 6...Bg6 7.Bg6 hg6: 8.Qe2 c6 ..... Instead I'd prefer 9.Bg5 e6 10.0-0-0, for example 10...Be7 11.h4


I doubt White's compensation after 11...Nbd7 plan 12...Qa5 and 13...0-0-0. This looks too much like a Caro-Kann (4...Bf5) with an extra pawn for Black.
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #55 - 05/21/09 at 04:51:39
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Markovich wrote on 05/20/09 at 21:09:04:
After 23...Nd7 24.Rxa5 Nxe5 I certainly would not give a draw if White offered it, would you?  [...] You may be right that technically, it's drawn; I don't have the skill or knowledge necessary to judge that.

In my opinion the ending is slightly better for White: 25.a3 Kd6 26.b3 Nc8 27.a4 bxa4 and now White can have a passed pawn with 28.bxa4 (28.Rxa4!?) g6 29.Ra8, but Black holds: 29...Kc7 30.Ra5. I'd agree with you that 2N are stronger than R+P if the pawns were all on one side of the board. But in our concrete situation, with pawns on both sides of the board, Black can't concentrate his forces on one side, to win a pawn, because he is forced to defend all his pawns. It would be Black's dream to reduce the position to something simple like g4 vs g5. But as I said above, even then it's a draw. 

By the way, instead of 16.Nc5, White also has 16.Nxe6 fxe6 17.Rxf8+ Kxf8 18.Rd8+ Kf7 19.Ng5+ Kg6 20.Nxe6 with similar, but not identical consequences. And I am sure that White has further attractive ideas to illustrate his compensation. 

Markovich wrote on 05/20/09 at 21:09:04:
After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.O-O-O Bd6 10.Be5 O-O 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Qxe4 f6 13.Rhe1 Re8 (13...Bb4 may be best) 14.g4, what do you say to 14...Bb4 with the idea 15.c3 Bxc3 16.bxc3 fxe5 and now 17.Nxe5 Nd7 or 17.dxe5 Qe7?

13...Rhe8 (13...Bb4 14.c3 Bxc3 15.bxc3 fxe5 16.Qg4 comp.) 14.g4 Bb4 15.c3 Bxc3 16.bxc3 fxe5 17.dxe5 Qe7 (so far your new proposal) 18.h4 Na6 19.Ng5 g6 20.Rd6 Nc7 21.c4 +=, e.g. 21...Rf8 22.Red1 Ne8 23.R6d2 Ng7 24.Qd4 b6 25.Qd6 Qxd6 26.Rxd6 c5 27.Kc2 h5 28.gxh5 Nf5 29.Rxe6 Ne3+ 30.Kc1 Nxd1 31.Rxg6+ Kh8 32.Kxd1 +/-.

@Uruk: You give 6...Bg6 7.Bg6 hg6: 8.Qe2 c6 9.Bf4 e6 10.O-O-O Bb4. Instead I'd prefer 9.Bg5 e6 10.0-0-0, for example 10...Be7 11.h4, or 10...Bb4?! 11.d5!. 
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #54 - 05/21/09 at 03:29:17
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Markovich wrote on 05/21/09 at 01:35:01:

In the first place, please don't presume to use a familiar form of my handle.  There is a whiff of deprecation in it.


No familiarity nor deprecation, just abbreviation. But right, butchering a name is evil.

Markovich wrote on 05/21/09 at 01:35:01:

"It's really a matter of rook pressure."  Yes, and the Smith-Morra Gambit is really a matter of rook pressure, you know?  No doubt that's why it's so feared.


I didn't get that. I was answering your claim that the light-squared bishop is White's best piece, saying that to me, the rooks are.

Markovich wrote on 05/21/09 at 01:35:01:

And White has very few pieces left to take advantage of them.  What are we supposed to be in terror of, losing a pawn?


Precisely the heavy pieces are left, and they're quite active.

Markovich wrote on 05/21/09 at 01:35:01:

Instead of pontificating, would you please supply specific analysis, e.g., of the position after 13...Bb4 (probably best) or 13...Re8 14.g4 Bb4?  
Further, have you looked at the 2N vs R+P ending discussed above?  Is that an example of the alleged power of 6.Bd3?


See above, I offered the bind h4, Ng5 & Rd6 to follow your variation 13...Re8 (...) 17.de5 Qe7
Maybe that wasn't clear enough.

Sorry, didn't saw your 13...Bb4. It looks interesting, although 14.c3 Bc3 15.bc3 fe5 16.Qg4 looks like comp.

About the 2N vs R, I didn't really look at it but I suspect White can hold.
As it stands 6.Bd3 is White's best chance for equality at the moment.
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #53 - 05/21/09 at 01:35:01
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Uruk wrote on 05/20/09 at 22:03:43:
Well Marko, with h4, Ng5 & Rd6 you seem quite tied up.
If we play moves like ...f6 White will always have compensation.

In my view 6.Bd3 is especially strong because Black must choose between two evils:
- ...Bg6 Bxg6 and the k-side pawns are weakened;
- ...Bxd3 Qxd3 and White's castling is accelerated.

It's really a matter of rook pressure.


In the first place, please don't presume to use a familiar form of my handle.  There is a whiff of deprecation in it.

To me it seems that moves like ...f6 are quite fine, given that we are a pawn up and have only the one weakness after we play them.  And White has very few pieces left to take advantage of them.  What are we supposed to be in terror of, losing a pawn?  

Instead of pontificating, would you please supply specific analysis, e.g., of the position after 13...Bb4 (probably best) or 13...Re8 14.g4 Bb4?  

Further, have you looked at the 2N vs R+P ending discussed above?  Is that an example of the alleged power of 6.Bd3?

"It's really a matter of rook pressure."  Yes, and the Smith-Morra Gambit is really a matter of rook pressure, you know?  No doubt that's why it's so feared.
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #52 - 05/21/09 at 00:48:35
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So maybe it's time to investigate my first reaction 6...Bg6

Actually it's not clear that the pawns are weakened by 7.Bg6 hg6:

we saw that a queen on g3 could attack the pawn on g7.
Now the doubled pawn shields that.

Moreover the fixing Caro advance h4-h5, that we also saw, is now senseless.

Say 8.Qe2 c6 9.Bf4 e6 10.O-O-O Bb4.
  
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Re: Open challenge to Uruk 6..c6
Reply #51 - 05/20/09 at 22:03:43
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Well Marko, with h4, Ng5 & Rd6 you seem quite tied up.
If we play moves like ...f6 White will always have compensation.

In my view 6.Bd3 is especially strong because Black must choose between two evils:
- ...Bg6 Bxg6 and the k-side pawns are weakened;
- ...Bxd3 Qxd3 and White's castling is accelerated.

It's really a matter of rook pressure.
  
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