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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Two knights as black (Read 33155 times)
Ender
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #48 - 05/27/09 at 14:25:51
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GabrielGale wrote on 05/27/09 at 12:44:39:
@ Ender, the offical website has the video and others:
http://www.saintlouischessclub.org/US-Championship-2009

Note that the ICC.ChessFM's video on Youtube has been edited and does not include the discussion on the second and others.



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GabrielGale
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #47 - 05/27/09 at 12:44:39
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@ Ender, the offical website has the video and others:
http://www.saintlouischessclub.org/US-Championship-2009

Note that the ICC.ChessFM's video on Youtube has been edited and does not include the discussion on the second and others.
  
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Re: Two knights as black_Nakamura-Friedel game
Reply #46 - 05/26/09 at 11:11:10
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GabrielGale wrote on 05/26/09 at 09:07:40:
I thought it may be intersting for Chesspubbers to read Nakamura's own thoughts on the game. I have taken this from his blog: http://www.hikarunakamura.com/main/Blog/tabid/57/EntryID/62/Default.aspx

Quote:
In the game itself, I opted for 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4! (First time I ever played this and it gave me a psychological edge!) Nf6 4.Ng5! d5 5.exd5. At this point in the game, I expected Josh to use a little time as he had several different options. Surprisingly, Josh used less than a minute and opted for the main line 5...Na5 which I had never seen him play before. The first real surprise came on move eight when I played Bd3 instead of the more common Be2. When Kris first mentioned this to me at around 11:30 PM, I assumed he was somewhat joking as it looked really funny. Kris told me that Morozevich had played it, and I figured why not! If Moro plays it, then it has to be sound, right? NOT! In the morning when I got up at 5 AM (I did not sleep well at all) to review, I went through most of the variations and felt White had good play despite the weird piece setup. In the game though, it worked out beautifully as Josh tried to go for a rook lift from b8-b4-f4/g4/h4. Although I cannot fault Josh for getting desperate at this point it only worsened his position and he went down in flames shortly thereafter. The first time that I truly began to start feeling pressure/excitement was when Josh sacrificed the exchange on d3. Originally I did not see the strength of 19.g4! followed by 20.d4. I simply thought Ng4 was winning, but after the counterpunch Nc6 with the idea of Nd4 the position remains far from clear (for a human since Rybka remains unimpressed). When I went 20.d4 Rd8 21.Qe2 I really started to a sense of true accomplishment as I knew I would win at this point. Most of the thoughts which really started going through my head were that I had finally done it and returned to a place which I have not been for the last few months. Josh played 21...Rxd4 which allowed the killer shot 22.Bc1 trapping his queen. I had to really try hard to restrain myself at this point from making any gestures or things of the sort as I was really overcome with emotion.


It is interesting that his second, Kris (who from a related interview is rated only 2200s and the interview is interesting for Nakmura's take on rating strength and the job of a second), refers to Morozevich's game (?) and not to Stellwagen's analysis.
PS Nakamura is annotating all his US Championship games (I hope!) and so far he is at Rd 2. Hopefully he will annotate Rd 9 and reveal a bit about his preparation.


Well it might be a bit farfetched to assume that GM's will own all books  Grin. 

Although it still could be that the work of his second did incorparate the analysis of Stellwagen it wouldn't be the first time strong players disregard other sources when playing an opening. Certainly in a little-used sideline as this.   
  
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Re: Two knights as black_Nakamura-Friedel game
Reply #45 - 05/26/09 at 10:01:44
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GabrielGale wrote on 05/26/09 at 09:07:40:


It is interesting that his second, Kris (who from a related interview is rated only 2200s and the interview is interesting for Nakmura's take on rating strength and the job of a second)


Can You give link to this interview?
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M.
  
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GabrielGale
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Re: Two knights as black_Nakamura-Friedel game
Reply #44 - 05/26/09 at 09:07:40
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I thought it may be intersting for Chesspubbers to read Nakamura's own thoughts on the game. I have taken this from his blog: http://www.hikarunakamura.com/main/Blog/tabid/57/EntryID/62/Default.aspx

Quote:
In the game itself, I opted for 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4! (First time I ever played this and it gave me a psychological edge!) Nf6 4.Ng5! d5 5.exd5. At this point in the game, I expected Josh to use a little time as he had several different options. Surprisingly, Josh used less than a minute and opted for the main line 5...Na5 which I had never seen him play before. The first real surprise came on move eight when I played Bd3 instead of the more common Be2. When Kris first mentioned this to me at around 11:30 PM, I assumed he was somewhat joking as it looked really funny. Kris told me that Morozevich had played it, and I figured why not! If Moro plays it, then it has to be sound, right? NOT! In the morning when I got up at 5 AM (I did not sleep well at all) to review, I went through most of the variations and felt White had good play despite the weird piece setup. In the game though, it worked out beautifully as Josh tried to go for a rook lift from b8-b4-f4/g4/h4. Although I cannot fault Josh for getting desperate at this point it only worsened his position and he went down in flames shortly thereafter. The first time that I truly began to start feeling pressure/excitement was when Josh sacrificed the exchange on d3. Originally I did not see the strength of 19.g4! followed by 20.d4. I simply thought Ng4 was winning, but after the counterpunch Nc6 with the idea of Nd4 the position remains far from clear (for a human since Rybka remains unimpressed). When I went 20.d4 Rd8 21.Qe2 I really started to a sense of true accomplishment as I knew I would win at this point. Most of the thoughts which really started going through my head were that I had finally done it and returned to a place which I have not been for the last few months. Josh played 21...Rxd4 which allowed the killer shot 22.Bc1 trapping his queen. I had to really try hard to restrain myself at this point from making any gestures or things of the sort as I was really overcome with emotion.


It is interesting that his second, Kris (who from a related interview is rated only 2200s and the interview is interesting for Nakmura's take on rating strength and the job of a second), refers to Morozevich's game (?) and not to Stellwagen's analysis.

PS Nakamura is annotating all his US Championship games (I hope!) and so far he is at Rd 2. Hopefully he will annotate Rd 9 and reveal a bit about his preparation.
  
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #43 - 05/25/09 at 11:00:59
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The popularity of Ng5 at lower levels (my level thus) always has struck me as a bit weird. A lot of white players are clueless when black doesn't play 5... Nxd5, some have some recollection what  to play after Na5 (but very vaguely) and most of them just fall of their chair when you play 5... b5. And even when they know their stuff the game isn't over by a long shot.   

Play from the white side always struck me as clinging on to a raft  (the pawn) in a wild river (black's initiative) in the hope to last untill the quieter part of the river (the endgame).  Not a very healthy way to get there unless you are counting on your opponent not to make the most of his chances or that your defensive skills are up to the task.
  
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #42 - 05/23/09 at 17:26:03
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@Topnotch
No as GabrielGale allready pointed out
Castaldi - Keres continued with the weaker 9.Ne4
I just mentioned the game to indicate that 8....Nd5!? was employed by Keres.
  
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #41 - 05/23/09 at 12:43:25
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micawber wrote on 05/19/09 at 09:14:46:

RE Nakamura - Friedel
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Bd3 
And now:
8...Nd5! (Castaldi-Keres, Stockholm, 1937) 9.Nf3,Bd6 10.0-0,Nf4!=8...Ng4!? 9.Ne4,f5 10.Be2,h5 11.h3, fxe 12.hxg4,Bc5 unclear (Stellwagen-l'Ami, Maastricht, 2008)

I regard both 8...Nd5! and 8...Ng4 stronger than 8....Be7.

By the way 8...Be7 was used by Karjakin (black) against Morozowich in 2008. This game ended in a draw. Needless to say Karjakin's handling of the position was more carefull than Friedel's.


Are the highlighted moves correct for that game?

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micawber
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #40 - 05/23/09 at 08:42:50
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@Gabrielgale:
Thx for the link! I was not aware of it or Stellwagen's article!

An additional interesting game in this variation (not mentioned in the article:)

8.Bd3, Nd5    (I mentioned the reference to Castaldi-Keres here, as I knew that Castaldi had not played the strongest 9th move)  
9.Nf3            (I gave this move because I think it's stronger than Ne4?!)
9......., Bd6
10.0-0,
10....., Nf4    (Goeller/Stellwagen give 10.....0-0 here.But playing Nf4 first prevents the escape of the Bishop to f1)
11.Re1          11.Be2, e4 looks OK for Black
11....., Nxd3
12.cxd3,0-0
13.Nxe5,Re8
14.d4, f6
15.Nf3,Bg4    
(Ketzetzis - Grandelius, Herceq Novi, 2008)
I think Black has sufficient compensation for his pawns.
Note that white has to do something about ...Bxf3 as for the moment he cant take back on f3 with his queen.


Note:
The position after 
10....Nf4 11.Re1
was first reached in Hannauer - F.Reinfeld, 1939
Reinfeld continued 11....Qc7 after which Hannauer played 12.Bf1.
  
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #39 - 05/22/09 at 14:44:07
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Chesspubber as well as Kenilworthian, Urusov, annotates Nakamura-Friedel's US Chess Championship last round game at http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/nakamura-friedel-us09.htm tracing 8 Bd3 to "Isidor Gunsberg in the 19th Century but recently revived by Daniel Stellwagen, who presents an article on it in "Secrets of Opening Surprises, Volume #9."

@ Micawber, in response to 8..Nd5, Goeller gives 9 Nf3! as Stellwagen's analysis. He gives 9 Ne4?!  as played in Vincenzo Castaldi-Paul Keres/04 1937.
  
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #38 - 05/19/09 at 12:23:47
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The Hand wrote on 05/19/09 at 03:38:58:
BPaulsen wrote on 05/18/09 at 08:11:41:


You have to love the romanticism of the Two Knights making an appearance in the US Championship.


And not just any game of the event, but THE money game in the final round.

Impressive as it was entertaining.


That 4.Ng5 was played is perhaps more surprising than that 3...Nf6 was.  It's stock-in-trade for a 1...e5 player.  I don't know what Friedel had in mind, but if you're going to play 3...Nf6, you'd better know how to do it.

I wonder if Nakamura had anything specific in mind against 8...Nd5 or if it was just another random choice from Nakamura's seemingly vast collection of moves that he just might play.
  
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #37 - 05/19/09 at 09:14:46
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RE Nakamura - Friedel
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Bd3 
And now:
8...Nd5! (Castaldi-Keres, Stockholm, 1937) 9.Nf3,Bd6 10.0-0,Nf4!=
8...Ng4!? 9.Ne4,f5 10.Be2,h5 11.h3, fxe 12.hxg4,Bc5 unclear (Stellwagen-l'Ami, Maastricht, 2008)

I regard both 8...Nd5! and 8...Ng4 stronger than 8....Be7.

By the way 8...Be7 was used by Karjakin (black) against Morozowich in 2008. This game ended in a draw. Needless to say Karjakin's handling of the position was more carefull than Friedel's.
  
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #36 - 05/19/09 at 03:38:58
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BPaulsen wrote on 05/18/09 at 08:11:41:


You have to love the romanticism of the Two Knights making an appearance in the US Championship.


And not just any game of the event, but THE money game in the final round.

Impressive as it was entertaining.
  
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #35 - 05/18/09 at 14:52:34
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Friedel never got around to ...Nd5, which I thought was pretty standard against 8.Bd3.  But in any case, Nakamura's move gave Friedel winning chances that he failed to carry through on.
  
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Re: Two knights as black
Reply #34 - 05/18/09 at 08:11:41
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 05/18/09 at 04:11:39:
It seems like this thread would be a nice place to include the following game. Nakamura just smashed Friedel's Two Knight's Defense in the last round to win the US Championship. I am not familiar with the line, but it appeared that Josh was ill-prepared, and Nakamura was well-prepared. I remember hearing Emil Sutovsky on chess fm saying he was not impressed with 12...Rb4. Certainly the rook led a sad life.

[Event "US Championship"]
[Site "Saint Louis USA"]
[Date "2009.05.17"]
[EventDate "2009.05.08"]
[Round "9"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Hi Nakamura"]
[Black "J Friedel"]
[ECO "C58"]
[WhiteElo "2701"]
[BlackElo "2516"]
[PlyCount "44"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6
bxc6 8. Bd3 Be7 9. Nc3 O-O 10. O-O Rb8 11. h3 c5 12. b3 Rb4 13. Re1 Bb7 14.
Ba3 Rf4 15. g3 Rd4 16. Nf3 Rxd3 17. cxd3 Qxd3 18. Nxe5 Qf5 19. g4 Qf4 20.
d4 Rd8 21. Qe2 Rxd4 22. Bc1 1-0

I winced in pain after the last move was played.


Interesting that Nakamura chose 8. Bd3

The ability to play anything as he seems to have definitely makes him nearly impossible to prepare for. 

You have to love the romanticism of the Two Knights making an appearance in the US Championship.
  
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