Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Opening transpostions (Read 4176 times)
BPaulsen
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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #12 - 05/21/09 at 04:59:14
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Scott wrote on 05/21/09 at 04:10:37:
I have generally played the Main Line Slav in the past. But, considering the fact that I'm really just starting my serious study of the Slav, I'm open to the possibility of new lines.

How likely is it that I might want to take up different lines against different openings by White? For instance, 4... ddxc4 vs. 1. d4 and 4... a6 vs. 1. Nf3, just to use some of the previous conversation as an example.


Against 1. c4 then you could take up e5 which is easy to play and equal (English 4 Knights).

Against 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 you can respond with 2...d4 which is the easiest equalizer, and trust me when I say Reti players hate to see it.

If you wanted to add those you'd never end up seeing the Gurevich Anti-Slav, or 4. Nc3.

Your repetoire would be:

1. e4 c6
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6
1. c4 e5
1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 d4

Slav set-up against everything else.
  

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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #11 - 05/21/09 at 04:10:37
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I have generally played the Main Line Slav in the past. But, considering the fact that I'm really just starting my serious study of the Slav, I'm open to the possibility of new lines.

How likely is it that I might want to take up different lines against different openings by White? For instance, 4... ddxc4 vs. 1. d4 and 4... a6 vs. 1. Nf3, just to use some of the previous conversation as an example.
  

My style is somewhere between that of Petrosian and Tal.
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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #10 - 05/20/09 at 17:42:16
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Girkassa wrote on 05/20/09 at 17:27:19:
1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bf5 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Qb3 is a line to be aware of, but this is perhaps where tracke wants to play 3...Bg4 instead?
 

4...dxc4 =

Quote:

1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.e3 Nf6 4.Qc2, as BPaulsen says, and 4.Nc3, which is another possibility, could be very annoying or not annoying at all, depending on what Slav you play. If you like the Meran/Anti-Meran, you can safely play 4...e6, and White hardly has anything if he doesn't play d4 soon. If you play the ...a6 Slav, you can still play 4...a6, although play could take a slightly independent route. If you play the 4...dxc4 Slav, this move order could be very annoying.


4. Qc2 and 4. Nc3 are the only systems (really they usually transpose to eachother if black plays ...e6) with independent value for the flank openings. 4...a6 is certainly possible after 4. Nc3, as you mentioned.
  

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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #9 - 05/20/09 at 17:27:19
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1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bf5 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Qb3 is a line to be aware of, but this is perhaps where tracke wants to play 3...Bg4 instead?

1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.e3 Nf6 4.Qc2, as BPaulsen says, and 4.Nc3, which is another possibility, could be very annoying or not annoying at all, depending on what Slav you play. If you like the Meran/Anti-Meran, you can safely play 4...e6, and White hardly has anything if he doesn't play d4 soon. If you play the ...a6 Slav, you can still play 4...a6, although play could take a slightly independent route. If you play the 4...dxc4 Slav, this move order could be very annoying.
  
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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #8 - 05/20/09 at 12:34:56
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tracke wrote on 05/20/09 at 09:41:21:
BPaulsen wrote on 05/20/09 at 01:30:01:

Your amount of effort should depend on your repetoire.
A Slav player really doesn't have to know much of anything in the way of transpositions. He's going to play ...c6/...d5/...Nf6, etc. 

As longtime caro/slav player I would like too add that "...c6/...d5/...Nf6, etc." is not as easy as it seems. Besides transpositions there are also move order problems, especially against flank openings. - First, most times playing ...Nf6 is not as important as playing ...Bf5/Bg4 and  as playing ...e6 (after ...Bf5/Bg4) to be able to recapture ...exd5 (or to have a choice between exd5 or cxd5 depending on exact position). Second, if White doesn´t challenge d5 with an early c4 (1.Nf3/2.g3 for example) it´s often better to omit ...c6 to gain time for ...Bf5/Bg4 and ...e6 (there are many interesting ideas in Palliser´s Beating Unusual Chess Openings). - The most important black aim in slav structures is getting Bc8 out and playing ...e6 before White can punish (or prevent) this tactically! Playing ...Nf6 can wait and playing ...c6 is only necessary against c4 (respectively e4). - Therefore 1 Nf3 d5! might be definitely better than 1...Nf6 for a stand-alone slav player though White in the latter case couldn´t stop ...c6/...d5 . Things are easier if black has further choices in his repertoire, for example slav and Grünfeld structures (like me). If white tries to move-order me into a minor slav structure then he gets a harmless anti-Grünfeld setup (or vice versa).
I took years for me to identify correct black move orders against all these sophisticated white move orders, but in many cases there´s a small but important difference between white keeping a very small pull or black getting full equality!

tracke  Smiley

PS: Similiar points could be made against Queen´s Pawn Opening (1d4 d5 2e3 Bf5!)


After 1.Nf3 d5 there isn't anything spectacular (or even threatening) to a Slav player that would prevent him from going in for the standard ...d5/...c6/...Nf6/...Bf5 (or ...Bg4), etc. with equality. I would love to see something if you have it. Aside from that, why would a Slav player meet flank openings with 1...Nf6? That makes no sense, and only makes his life harder.

I should know, since I play 1. Nf3, and have looked for every possible way to eek something out of Slav players, and there's just nothing, except maybe the Gurevich anti-Slav (1. c4 c6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 Nf6 4. Qc2). Even then, black isn't exactly quaking in his boots.
  

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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #7 - 05/20/09 at 09:41:21
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BPaulsen wrote on 05/20/09 at 01:30:01:

Your amount of effort should depend on your repetoire.
A Slav player really doesn't have to know much of anything in the way of transpositions. He's going to play ...c6/...d5/...Nf6, etc. 

As longtime caro/slav player I would like too add that "...c6/...d5/...Nf6, etc." is not as easy as it seems. Besides transpositions there are also move order problems, especially against flank openings. - First, most times playing ...Nf6 is not as important as playing ...Bf5/Bg4 and  as playing ...e6 (after ...Bf5/Bg4) to be able to recapture ...exd5 (or to have a choice between exd5 or cxd5 depending on exact position). Second, if White doesn´t challenge d5 with an early c4 (1.Nf3/2.g3 for example) it´s often better to omit ...c6 to gain time for ...Bf5/Bg4 and ...e6 (there are many interesting ideas in Palliser´s Beating Unusual Chess Openings). - The most important black aim in slav structures is getting Bc8 out and playing ...e6 before White can punish (or prevent) this tactically! Playing ...Nf6 can wait and playing ...c6 is only necessary against c4 (respectively e4). - Therefore 1 Nf3 d5! might be definitely better than 1...Nf6 for a stand-alone slav player though White in the latter case couldn´t stop ...c6/...d5 . Things are easier if black has further choices in his repertoire, for example slav and Grünfeld structures (like me). If white tries to move-order me into a minor slav structure then he gets a harmless anti-Grünfeld setup (or vice versa).
I took years for me to identify correct black move orders against all these sophisticated white move orders, but in many cases there´s a small but important difference between white keeping a very small pull or black getting full equality!

tracke  Smiley

PS: Similiar points could be made against Queen´s Pawn Opening (1d4 d5 2e3 Bf5!)
  
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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #6 - 05/20/09 at 02:55:17
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BPaulsen wrote on 05/20/09 at 02:51:47:


I was going to say Scandinavian/Slav players, and then I remembered the line you mentioned (1.c4 c6 2. e4). I used to play the white side of that move order, and an unwary black opponent can quickly end up much worse.


I thought your post had changed after I started to reply...
  

My style is somewhere between that of Petrosian and Tal.
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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #5 - 05/20/09 at 02:53:40
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MNb wrote on 05/20/09 at 02:42:52:

This is only true if Black plays the Caro-Kann as well. Otherwise 1.c4 c6 2.e4 can be an unpleasant surprise. 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c6 3.e4 meets with some problems as well.


Works for me. I do play the Caro-Kann.  Smiley

MNb wrote on 05/20/09 at 02:42:52:

The easy answer is: ask here at this forum!


Yes, I figured someone here might be able to help. It's been the case so far.  Smiley
  

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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #4 - 05/20/09 at 02:51:47
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MNb wrote on 05/20/09 at 02:42:52:
BPaulsen wrote on 05/20/09 at 01:30:01:

A Slav player really doesn't have to know much of anything in the way of transpositions.


This is only true if Black plays the Caro-Kann as well. Otherwise 1.c4 c6 2.e4 can be an unpleasant surprise. 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c6 3.e4 meets with some problems as well.


Yeah, that's why I mentioned the repetoire in context of Caro-Kann/Slav players.

I was going to say Scandinavian/Slav players, and then I remembered the line you mentioned (1.c4 c6 2. e4). I used to play the white side of that move order, and an unwary black opponent can quickly end up much worse.
  

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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #3 - 05/20/09 at 02:42:52
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BPaulsen wrote on 05/20/09 at 01:30:01:

A Slav player really doesn't have to know much of anything in the way of transpositions.


This is only true if Black plays the Caro-Kann as well. Otherwise 1.c4 c6 2.e4 can be an unpleasant surprise. 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c6 3.e4 meets with some problems as well.

Scott wrote on 05/20/09 at 01:20:44:
My question then, is this: how do I know just how much effort to put into studying these possibilities?


The easy answer is: ask here at this forum!
  

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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #2 - 05/20/09 at 02:09:14
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Thanks. The more I read here, the more and more I think I'm leaning in the right direction with the Slav.

I've been playing the Slav a lot because I took up the Caro-Kann, and it seemed to fit well. I've considered some additional weapons, but I'm definitely starting to shy away from that. If I can build my repertoire without all the transpostions, I like the sound of that.
  

My style is somewhere between that of Petrosian and Tal.
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Re: Opening transpostions
Reply #1 - 05/20/09 at 01:30:01
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Scott wrote on 05/20/09 at 01:20:44:
I know that having an understanding of opening transpositions is going to be important in my current task of building an opening repertoire. But, I'm not quite sure how far to go with it. I get the fact the moves like 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 are very transpositional and that sometimes as Black I can try for a certain set-up, such as the Slav or Queen's Indian like I've done in recent games, but I also realize that in a lot of cases that may not be possible or wise.

My question then, is this: how do I know just how much effort to put into studying these possibilities? I know I don't need to ignore them, but I don't want to spend so much time doing that, that I don't put enough time into understanding the openings themselves, their goals, and how to carry them out.

I know that question may be a bit vague, but any tips would be appreciated. Thanks!


Your amount of effort should depend on your repetoire.

A Slav player really doesn't have to know much of anything in the way of transpositions. He's going to play ...c6/...d5/...Nf6, etc. The Slav is pretty much playable against everything, and anti-Slav systems, while some being moderately effective, (ie: Gurevich anti-Slav, which I've come to realize is simply one of black's systems against the Colle reversed), aren't going to threaten the integrity of your repetoire. 

A QID player needs to be very aware, since 1.c4/1.Nf3 can lead to entirely distinct variations.

A person can carve out a really simplistic opening repetoire as black by going with the Caro-Kann/Slav. The only other opening as black aside from the Slav that black can get at will against all others than 1.e4 is the KID.
  

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Opening transpostions
05/20/09 at 01:20:44
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I know that having an understanding of opening transpositions is going to be important in my current task of building an opening repertoire. But, I'm not quite sure how far to go with it. I get the fact the moves like 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 are very transpositional and that sometimes as Black I can try for a certain set-up, such as the Slav or Queen's Indian like I've done in recent games, but I also realize that in a lot of cases that may not be possible or wise.

My question then, is this: how do I know just how much effort to put into studying these possibilities? I know I don't need to ignore them, but I don't want to spend so much time doing that, that I don't put enough time into understanding the openings themselves, their goals, and how to carry them out.

I know that question may be a bit vague, but any tips would be appreciated. Thanks!
  

My style is somewhere between that of Petrosian and Tal.
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