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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nc3 or Nf3 (Read 28511 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #26 - 06/01/09 at 03:18:43
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Markovich wrote on 05/27/09 at 13:30:44:

@ everone who reads this: Is the theory of the Petrosian Markovich0 such that White can claim +=, or at least reasonable play for a win?


Mikhail Gurevich, who wrote the E12 section in the second edition of ECO, sounded very pessimistic about White's winning chances.  He wrote a separate monograph, which I still think is excellent.  So even though Gurevich likes the Petrosian/Kasparov system, he gives it low marks on theory.


Gurevich wrote about a decade ago, but I haven't seen any major revision in his thinking.  I imagine that the theoretical view of 4.a3 is +/= leaning toward =.  But as with all basically sound openings, practice and homework could make this a very dangerous weapon.
  
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #25 - 05/29/09 at 04:08:21
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It might be mentioned that there is considerable material pertaining to 3. Nc3 and 3. Nf3, including the Petrosian QID and several NID systems, in Ivan Sokolov's recent pawn-structure book.
  
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Scott
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #24 - 05/29/09 at 00:56:11
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It could well be that my success with the Petrosian QID is because of the level of play. Most of my play is on a couple of e-mail chess sites, and vs. Chessmaster and Fritz.

I haven't run into 4... Ba6 all that much (I'm thinking I faced it once). I usually see 4... Bb7, so that could be another reason for my success. I'm certainly interested in hearing more opinions about it.
  

My style is somewhere between that of Petrosian and Tal.
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #23 - 05/28/09 at 07:49:50
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Markovich wrote on 05/27/09 at 13:30:44:

@ everone who reads this: Is the theory of the Petrosian Markovich1 such that White can claim +=, or at least reasonable play for a win?

 
Last I checked the ...Bb7 variation left white with very good chances of playing for a win (tends to be +=), whereas the ...Ba6 variation leads to unclear positions where black isn't worse. As far as I know it's 4...Ba6 that has really put 4. a3 on the backburner theoretically.

Much like the French the QID has been in my repetoire since I started, so I've usually kept tabs on it theoretically (both in Bb7 and Ba6 variations since I've played both at varying points).
  

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Scott
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #22 - 05/28/09 at 05:34:56
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Markovich wrote on 05/27/09 at 13:30:44:
Scott wrote on 05/25/09 at 01:02:51:


I'm not really a gambiteer. About the only "gambit" I play is the Queen's Gambit.


A "gambiteer" to me is someone who plays 19th-Century-style gambits.  I don't see how someone can play chess and not be willing to sac any given amount of material for corresponding play.  Pawn-sacs and exchange-sacs are a dime a dozen in modern chess theory, let alone practice.  The ability to spot them and the willingness to play them are just plain essential for good players -- but that doesn't make anybody a gambiteer, necessarily.


You stated it a lot better than I did.  Smiley I meant my statement to say that I'm not a gambit style player, not so much that I won't make concessions to reach a goal. I know that it's necesary at times to do that. I just prefer quiter play most of the time.

Markovich wrote on 05/27/09 at 13:30:44:

@ everone who reads this: Is the theory of the Petrosian Markovich3 such that White can claim +=, or at least reasonable play for a win?


I'll just say I've done all right with it and I'm comfortable playing it. If I was guaranteed playing against the QID after 3. Nf3, I wouldn't have even bothered with this thread, because I know which system I like against it. It's just the transpositions that give me fits...
  

My style is somewhere between that of Petrosian and Tal.
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Markovich
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #21 - 05/27/09 at 13:30:44
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Scott wrote on 05/25/09 at 01:02:51:


I'm not really a gambiteer. About the only "gambit" I play is the Queen's Gambit.


A "gambiteer" to me is someone who plays 19th-Century-style gambits.  I don't see how someone can play chess and not be willing to sac any given amount of material for corresponding play.  Pawn-sacs and exchange-sacs are a dime a dozen in modern chess theory, let alone practice.  The ability to spot them and the willingness to play them are just plain essential for good players -- but that doesn't make anybody a gambiteer, necessarily. 

I certainly don't think of people who play the 4.a3 versus the Nimzo as gambiteers, notwithstanding that their c4-pawn very frequently dies an early death.

@ everone who reads this: Is the theory of the Petrosian QID such that White can claim +=, or at least reasonable play for a win?
  

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Antillian
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #20 - 05/27/09 at 09:46:25
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They are similar only to the extent that both often lead to a direct  assault on the king. But in the 4. a3 Nimzo, White often burns his bridges completely due to the structural compromises  he accepts and the weakness of the c4 square.
  

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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #19 - 05/27/09 at 02:27:21
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I think 4.a3 vs the QID and 4.a3 vs the NID are completely different species. The Sämisch is very principled for both sides exactly because it rises the question: pair of bishops or weak pawns?
  

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Scott
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #18 - 05/27/09 at 01:27:31
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Maybe I should just study the whole book...  Wink

Seriously, though, 4. a3 has been my usual move against the Queen's Indian. Would 4. a3 against the Nimzo compliment that well, or would something else?
  

My style is somewhere between that of Petrosian and Tal.
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #17 - 05/27/09 at 01:10:47
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Antillian wrote on 05/25/09 at 20:19:17:
LeeRoth wrote on 05/25/09 at 14:35:47:
I play both.  For me, its purely a matter of mood or opponent.  

If you're going to learn the Nimzo as White, I would recommend starting with 4.e3 or 4.a3.  These will more often lead you to the basic structures that you need to learn in order to understand the opening.  



I can understand a player learning the Nimzo as Black focusing firstly on the 4. e3 and 4 a3 systems. However, I am at a lost as to what a white Nimzo player who wants to adopt say, the 4 Qc2 system would gain from studying 4 e3 and 4 a3


I am proposing that Scott take up 4.e3 or 4.a3 instead of 4.Qc2.  If you want to learn the Nimzo from scratch, I opine that you will find 4.e3 and 4.a3 easier to start with and, further, that they will do more to teach you the fundamentals of the Nimzo than most of the other lines.  As for 4.Qc2, while it is very fashionable at the pro level, I don't think its all that easy for a beginning Nimzo player to handle.  Just my opinion, your mileage may vary  Wink   
 
  
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #16 - 05/27/09 at 00:02:12
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I certainly understand what you mean, and if I see where I can gain something from a sacrifice, I'll go for it. Maybe a better way to say it is that I try to look for solidity first. I'll generally go for the more positional move if I have a real choice to make.

As to the popularity of the moves, I don't really know, as I haven't played 1... Nf6 as much as 1... d5 as Black. I do know though, that a transposition to the QGD is a very real possibility after Nf3, as I've faced that several times.
  

My style is somewhere between that of Petrosian and Tal.
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #15 - 05/26/09 at 23:03:13
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Scott wrote on 05/25/09 at 01:02:51:
I'm not really a gambiteer. ...



While I understand the sentiment, and I might have written those words once, I now realise that in order to gain an advantage in the opening I have to be willing to sacrifice something.  My gambits usually occur later in the game than the Romantic players, but I still offer material or space in return for an interesting attack or at least counterplay.

The modern lines are replete with gambits, and I don't think it's possible to play theoretically topical chess without playing some sort of gambits.   

I choose 3.Nc3 about as often as I choose lines with 3.Nf3 (usually by transposition).  I usually make my choice based on what I think my opponent is most prepared for and go the other way. The problems, as several have mentioned, go beyond merely whether to play the QID/Benoni/Bogo systems or the NID.  White is even stating what sorts of Queen's Gambit he is likely to play.  I wonder if 3.Nf3 is actually as popular as Scott suggests, or if 1.Nf3 is popular, transposing to the the QGD with Nf3.
  
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #14 - 05/25/09 at 20:19:17
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LeeRoth wrote on 05/25/09 at 14:35:47:
I play both.  For me, its purely a matter of mood or opponent.  

If you're going to learn the Nimzo as White, I would recommend starting with 4.e3 or 4.a3.  These will more often lead you to the basic structures that you need to learn in order to understand the opening.  



I can understand a player learning the Nimzo as Black focusing firstly on the 4. e3 and 4 a3 systems. However, I am at a lost as to what a white Nimzo player who wants to adopt say, the 4 Qc2 system would gain from studying 4 e3 and 4 a3
  

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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #13 - 05/25/09 at 14:35:47
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I play both.  For me, its purely a matter of mood or opponent.   

If you're going to learn the Nimzo as White, I would recommend starting with 4.e3 or 4.a3.  These will more often lead you to the basic structures that you need to learn in order to understand the opening.   

  
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Re: Nc3 or Nf3
Reply #12 - 05/25/09 at 12:45:01
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I used to play 4.Qc2 against the nimzo and the exchange variation against the QGD. Now I'm switching over to the catalan.
  

'Experts vs The Sicilian' is a great book, but it is not the Bible. - TopNotch
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