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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Markovich Doctine (Read 7285 times)
TonyRo
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #55 - 06/16/09 at 18:58:25
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Ah crap I don't have that book! Leave it to Khalifman to screw it up....I will get it and get back to you on this one.  Grin
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #54 - 06/16/09 at 18:53:27
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TonyRo wrote on 06/16/09 at 18:36:22:
I'd be curious to see what you think is best play for White after 9...Ne8, just so I can give this variation up and play the "real" lines. I'd certainly agree that it looks fishy, but I don't know what the best line is. Do you do away with a4 and play Ba3 and cxd6?


14. Ba3 (! is given in OFWAK)

White can elect 17. a4 and continue as given in OFWAK (admittedly after a ridiculous amount of analysis to consume), or 17. Kh1 which has been the favorite of late amongst white players 2500+.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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TonyRo
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #53 - 06/16/09 at 18:36:22
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I'd be curious to see what you think is best play for White after 9...Ne8, just so I can give this variation up and play the "real" lines. I'd certainly agree that it looks fishy, but I don't know what the best line is. Do you do away with a4 and play Ba3 and cxd6?
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #52 - 06/16/09 at 18:15:39
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TonyRo wrote on 06/16/09 at 16:55:42:
It's not clear to me that it's easier than the main lines. Sure, White gets something that he's not supposed to get, namely the c4-c5, Nd2-c4 combo, when he has all of his pieces where he wants. But Black doesn't waste time with all the crazy moves he plays in the main line 9...a5 stuff either. All that said, Black scores positively in the variation on my database: 

After 13...g5 - 53% out of 77 games.

After 18...g4 - 64% out of 14 games.

Yes, I know that doesn't mean White's losing or that theoretically he's not better off here than he is after the main moves after 9. Nd2 (9...a5 and 9...c5), but it's a little worrying, and shows that practically Black's plan is quite dangerous!


White gets things he's not supposed to get, and to that end if this were objectively black's best variation then every white player in the world would immediately take up the Bayonet. And yes - as someone that has played the white side of the KID 9. Nd2 for years now, I can definitively say it is easier than the the main line.

The statistics just show black has practical chances. The theoretical stance of 9...Ne8 isn't as good as its performance, a lot of its success coming from the surprise value the move has since white spends more time prepping the more critical variations.

9. Nd2 is = after 9...a5 (assuming the ...Bd7 lines are chosen). There's a reason that move is the preference among GMs, and not 9...Ne8 which transposes to 9. b4 Ne8 anyway. You would think if it were all that great 9...Ne8 would be the universal answer to both 9. b4 and 9. Nd2, instead of 9...Nh5 and 9...a5, respectively.

9...Ne8 is great for showing thematic KID play, but there's a reason it has never been considered the correct response after either 9. Nd2 or 9. b4. If it were the most testing response it would've been made the main line a long time ago with numerous games at the super-GM level.

White should be very happy to see 9. b4 Ne8, even if black has some practical chances.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #51 - 06/16/09 at 16:55:42
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It's not clear to me that it's easier than the main lines. Sure, White gets something that he's not supposed to get, namely the c4-c5, Nd2-c4 combo, when he has all of his pieces where he wants. But Black doesn't waste time with all the crazy moves he plays in the main line 9...a5 stuff either. All that said, Black scores positively in the variation on my database: 

After 13...g5 - 53% out of 77 games.

After 18...g4 - 64% out of 14 games.

Yes, I know that doesn't mean White's losing or that theoretically he's not better off here than he is after the main moves after 9. Nd2 (9...a5 and 9...c5), but it's a little worrying, and shows that practically Black's plan is quite dangerous!
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #50 - 06/16/09 at 16:30:33
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TonyRo wrote on 06/16/09 at 15:10:43:
TicklyTim wrote on 06/16/09 at 14:38:40:
Yesterdays match Gelfand - Nisipeanu was a Bayonet Attack in which Nisipeanu got the blocked structure (f3 ..f4;) and went for the 'typical' knight sac with ..Nxe4 followed by ..f3. He however missed an opportunity , and white went on to win.
I had planned the Bayonet to avoid these types of positions. 
Does anyone think that 15.Bf3 is more likely to avoid this blocked type of position than 15.f3 (as played in the game).
If this main line results in the typical kingside assault I may have to rethink playing the Bayonet in order to follow "The Markovich Doctine".

Tickly.


If you wanted to play the Bayonet strickly to avoid these types of things, you've probably picked the wrong line. Most games in the Bayonet don't look like this, but it can happen. One line that you should look out for, however rare, is 9. b4 Ne8!?, a line covered by Golubev in Understanding the King's Indian. Here the main line runs 10. c5 f5 11. Nd2 (Maybe 11. Ng5 is a try to steer the game back into normal Bayonet lines...)Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. Nc4 g5 14. a4 (14. Ba3!?) Ng6 15. Ba3 Rf7 16. b5 dxc5 17. Bxc5 h5 18. a5 g4-> when Black has done fine. Pascal Charbonneau won a nice game not too long ago (see link below), and if my opponent in one of my ICCF games would resign already, I'd have a nice rout to show as well. 

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1503607


11. Nd2 is perfectly fine and correct. There's no reason to steer that towards "normal" Bayonet lines. White is playing an easier variation of 9. Nd2 than he'd otherwise get, so there's no reason to fear it.

If white has low tolerance for the lines which are better for him, but give black some practical chances, then he shouldn't even be playing the Bayonet. Black will always have practical chances regardless of variation.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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TonyRo
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #49 - 06/16/09 at 16:25:47
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Mark's point is not that he can't win these games, it's that by giving a lower rated player a position that is easy to play and the plan is obvious, you're effectively closing the rating gap between the two players and elevating your lower rated opponents chances to beat you. If you play a position where the plans are more subtle, original or unfamiliar, it might even expand the rating gap because of your lower rated opponents inability to understand the fluidity. 

It strikes me as similar to Mixed Martial Arts fights. Occasionally fights are created where one fighter is a known underdog, but also well known for his knockout power. Even though he's outclassed and likely to lose, he still has what we martial artists call a "puncher's chance" since at any moment he could knock you out with a stray blow. Markovich is just simply proposing to take this chance away. 

I guess it's just a different mindset...your opinion that you should just be able to play the position regardless also has it's practical points.
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #48 - 06/16/09 at 16:13:19
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Markovich wrote on 06/01/09 at 12:28:27:
All right, dear chessfriends, I am now going to promulgate the Markovich Doctrine:  Never let the weaker player have his standard kingside attack in the King's Indian, but instead make him play a fluid game of chess.  In particular never let him have the Mar del Plata variation or anything that resembles it.

Why on earth would you gamble with your king against someone that you'll very likely outplay in an ordinary game of chess?  Why would you offer him the chance to concentrate, to the exclusion of all else, on devising ways to blast open your castled position?  So play the Gligoric, the Fianchetto, or the Averbach and take away his chances, along with his fun.  


You're not the first one who says this. But next time I teach my students this I will say: á la markovich. On the other hand, shouldn't you be able to win these games also? If you can't win with your regular repetoire against much weaker players, how can you against stronger players?
  

'Experts vs The Sicilian' is a great book, but it is not the Bible. - TopNotch
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #47 - 06/16/09 at 15:10:43
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TicklyTim wrote on 06/16/09 at 14:38:40:
Yesterdays match Gelfand - Nisipeanu was a Bayonet Attack in which Nisipeanu got the blocked structure (f3 ..f4;) and went for the 'typical' knight sac with ..Nxe4 followed by ..f3. He however missed an opportunity , and white went on to win.
I had planned the Bayonet to avoid these types of positions. 
Does anyone think that 15.Bf3 is more likely to avoid this blocked type of position than 15.f3 (as played in the game).
If this main line results in the typical kingside assault I may have to rethink playing the Bayonet in order to follow "The Markovich Doctine".

Tickly.


If you wanted to play the Bayonet strickly to avoid these types of things, you've probably picked the wrong line. Most games in the Bayonet don't look like this, but it can happen. One line that you should look out for, however rare, is 9. b4 Ne8!?, a line covered by Golubev in Understanding the King's Indian. Here the main line runs 10. c5 f5 11. Nd2 (Maybe 11. Ng5 is a try to steer the game back into normal Bayonet lines...)Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. Nc4 g5 14. a4 (14. Ba3!?) Ng6 15. Ba3 Rf7 16. b5 dxc5 17. Bxc5 h5 18. a5 g4-> when Black has done fine. Pascal Charbonneau won a nice game not too long ago (see link below), and if my opponent in one of my ICCF games would resign already, I'd have a nice rout to show as well. 

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1503607
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #46 - 06/16/09 at 14:50:39
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/15/09 at 17:34:34:
Having said all that, I agree with Markovich's Doctrine that The superior player should seek positions that are fluid and don't rely on rote play. I apply it (perhaps erroneously) to the white side of the Benko in much the same way that Yermolinsky writes about in his Road to Chess Improvement.

Then you should play 1.a3. No clearcut plan for black and the position is fluid Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #45 - 06/16/09 at 14:38:40
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Yesterdays match Gelfand - Nisipeanu was a Bayonet Attack in which Nisipeanu got the blocked structure (f3 ..f4;) and went for the 'typical' knight sac with ..Nxe4 followed by ..f3. He however missed an opportunity , and white went on to win.
I had planned the Bayonet to avoid these types of positions. 
Does anyone think that 15.Bf3 is more likely to avoid this blocked type of position than 15.f3 (as played in the game).
If this main line results in the typical kingside assault I may have to rethink playing the Bayonet in order to follow "The Markovich Doctine".

Tickly.
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #44 - 06/15/09 at 17:34:34
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(Markovich "Doctine"?)

I'm going to defend the Mar Del Plata variation for White against lower rated players.  The Mar del Plata Variation has become increasingly subtle over time.  If you had made this statement in the early 1980s, I probably would have agreed with you, but now Black needs to know where to place his pieces, and how to keep the light squared Bishop active.  

Meanwhile, White has several different plans with subtly distinct piece placements.  For instance, the Ne1, Nd2, and the Bayonet lines are quite different beasts.

Beyond that, I have played several lower rated players who trade down their heavy pieces and light squared bishop thinking the game would be at least equal.  They then discover to their dismay that, by sheer luck, White finds some winning plan.  It must seem like luck to these players because I have used the same idea to beat the same opponents repeatedly.  Some of these are +2000 USCF.

In fact, the very reputation of the Mar Del Plata means helps the stronger player in that once Black's attacking resources are dried up, Black often flounders about like .... ummm ... a flounder on a pier.

Having said all that, I agree with Markovich's Doctrine that The superior player should seek positions that are fluid and don't rely on rote play. I apply it (perhaps erroneously) to the white side of the Benko in much the same way that Yermolinsky writes about in his Road to Chess Improvement.
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #43 - 06/15/09 at 15:54:01
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I agree with Markovich doctrine. Flexible play.  Smiley

Onischuk,Alexander - Inarkiev,Ernesto [E92]
10th Karpov Int'l tourney Poikovsky/Russia (9), 12.06.2009


1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.Be3 Ng4 8.Bg5 f6 9.Bh4 g5 10.Bg3 Nh6 11.c5 g4 12.Nh4 Nc6 13.cxd6 cxd6 14.dxe5 fxe5 15.Bc4+ Kh8 16.Qd2 Nd4 17.Ne2 Nxe2 18.Bxe2 Be6 19.0-0 Qe7 20.b3 Rad8 21.Rad1 a6 22.Bc4 Bc8 23.f4 b5 24.Bd5 Ng8 25.Qe1 Nf6 26.fxe5 Nxd5 27.Rxf8+ Qxf8 28.exd5 dxe5 29.Qe4 Qf6 30.Re1 Rf8 31.Qxe5 Qf7 32.Qe4 Bb7 33.Qxg4 Bxd5 34.h3 Rg8 35.Qf5 Qxf5 36.Nxf5 Bf6 37.Kh2 h5 38.Rd1 Be4 39.Rd6 Rg6 40.Rxf6 Rxf6 41.Be5 1/2-1/2
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #42 - 06/03/09 at 18:09:00
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Yeah, agreed. The Mar Del Plata would actually be a great variation for either side to play in CC. If you're Black and you know how to play, you can find many improvements over computer analysis, and as White if you know how to play, you can hope your opponent plays like a computer!  Grin
  
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Re: The Markovich Doctine
Reply #41 - 06/03/09 at 18:07:12
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TonyRo wrote on 06/03/09 at 17:50:01:
Does this Doctrine have a Correspondence Caveat?


Well for one thing, I don't assume in CC that my opponent's rating necessarily means very much.  But in any case CC games are often tests of theory in this line or that, much less about relative playing strength (especially in view of so much silicon assistance being used).  In CC if you really want to win, it's either about catching your opponent in a theoretical error or obtaining a position that you understand much better than the chess engines.  An example of that would be the Botvinnik Variation of the Nimzo (the kingside pawn-roller).  The machines just don't see Black's danger there, and it seems that quite a few players don't either, and I've been able to grind out a lot of wins with it in CC.  I have heard it said that Black's side of the Winawer Poisened Pawn is good against machines, but I wouldn't know.
  

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