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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Why do not top players play the dutch? (Read 11572 times)
Willempie
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #17 - 06/14/09 at 20:03:17
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Jormechea wrote on 06/14/09 at 17:11:27:
Willempie wrote on 06/12/09 at 14:02:14:
Maybe it is because they are top players?
You dont see them playing many Ponziani's, Budapests or Marshall defenses either. Prolly because playing such openings against a very good player increases your chance of losing. And top players dislike losing.


I recall multiple world champions and number 1 contenders playing the dutch through out the history of the royal game!

Sure and for example Euwe used to recommend it. But imo it went out of fashion because from the 50s onward the indian openings really came into their own and they proved better than the Dutch. I think the last Dutch in a wch was Tal-Botwinnik.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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bragesjo
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #16 - 06/14/09 at 19:38:26
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Speaking of old masters, Botvinnik used to play Stonewall very often. And both Topalov and Kramnik has played Leningrad.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #15 - 06/14/09 at 19:35:33
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Willempie wrote on 06/13/09 at 23:24:48:
bragesjo wrote on 06/13/09 at 16:50:40:
Frankly, I dont remember the players name of games I saw but I am shure that there was several games played by Reindermann.

Reinderman (single n Wink) loses very little with this opening and as my game showed he can make a 2700+ player look like an 2200 who gets mopped up in the endgame.


Thanks for correction and games.
  
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #14 - 06/14/09 at 18:04:35
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Opening evaluations change over time, and chess is a lot more opening prep these days.
  
'Experts vs The Sicilian' is a great book, but it is not the Bible. - TopNotch
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #13 - 06/14/09 at 17:11:27
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Willempie wrote on 06/12/09 at 14:02:14:
Maybe it is because they are top players?
You dont see them playing many Ponziani's, Budapests or Marshall defenses either. Prolly because playing such openings against a very good player increases your chance of losing. And top players dislike losing.


I recall multiple world champions and number 1 contenders playing the dutch through out the history of the royal game!
  
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #12 - 06/13/09 at 23:43:09
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Apart from Malaniuk, another player who uses the Dutch is Onischuk. he played one game with the Dutch in this year`s US Championship, although it was against a much weaker opponent.

[Event "ch-USA"]
[Site "Saint Louis USA"]
[Date "2009.05.09"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Hughes, T."]
[Black "Onischuk, Al"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A81"]
[WhiteElo "2230"]
[BlackElo "2684"]
[PlyCount "42"]
[EventDate "2009.05.08"]

1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 d6 4. Nh3 g6 5. c3 e5 6. dxe5 dxe5 7. Qxd8+ Kxd8 8.Nd2 Bd6 9. e4 Nc6 10. exf5 gxf5 11. Nc4 Ke7 12. Bxc6 bxc6 13. f4 e4 14. Be3 c515. Nxd6 cxd6 16. c4 h5 17. O-O-O Ng4 18. Bd2 Be6 19. Bc3 Rhb8 20. b3 a5 21.Rd2 a4 0-1

  
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Willempie
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #11 - 06/13/09 at 23:24:48
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bragesjo wrote on 06/13/09 at 16:50:40:
Frankly, I dont remember the players name of games I saw but I am shure that there was several games played by Reindermann.

Reinderman (single n Wink) loses very little with this opening and as my game showed he can make a 2700+ player look like an 2200 who gets mopped up in the endgame.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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bragesjo
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #10 - 06/13/09 at 16:50:40
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Frankly, I dont remember the players name of games I saw but I am shure that there was several games played by Reindermann.
  
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Willempie
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #9 - 06/13/09 at 11:39:48
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I am not sure which games you are referring to but here are some of a year back i the c6-line and white being quite the lower rated.
[Event "EU-ch 9th"]
[Site "Plovdiv"]
[Date "2008.04.21"]
[Round "11"]
[White "Gustafsson,Jan"]
[Black "Vallejo Pons,Francisco"]
[Result "1-0"]
1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 d6 7.Nc3 c6 8.d5 Bd7 9.Rb1 a5 10.Nd4 Ng4 11.h3 Ne5 12.b3 Na6 13.Kh2 Nc7 14.f4 c5 15.Ndb5 Bxb5 16.cxb5 Nd7 17.Qd3 Bxc3 18.Qxc3 Nxb5 19.Qd3 Qb6 20.g4 Qa6 21.gxf5 Rxf5 22.Bb2 Nd4 23.Qxa6 Rxa6 24.e3 Nc2 25.Be4 Nxe3 26.Rfe1 Nxd5 27.Bxd5+ Rxd5 28.Rxe7 Rd2+ 29.Kg3 Nf8 30.Rg7+ Kh8 31.Rxb7+ Kg8 32.Rg7+ Kh8 33.Bf6 Rd3+ 34.Kh4 d5 35.Rxg6+ Rxf6 36.Rxf6 Kg7 37.Ra6 Ng6+ 38.Kg4 Rd2 39.Rg1 Rf2 40.Rxa5 Rxf4+ 41.Kg3 Rd4 42.Rxc5 Rd3+ 43.Kf2 Rxh3 44.Rg3 Rh1 45.a4 Rd1 46.Ke2 Rd4 47.a5 Kf6 48.a6 Nf4+ 49.Ke3 Re4+ 50.Kf3 Ne2 51.Rg2 Nd4+ 52.Kf2 Nxb3 53.a7 Rf4+ 54.Kg1 Ra4 55.Rc7 Ra1+ 56.Kh2 Nd4 57.Rb2 Ke5 58.Rb8 Ra2+ 59.Kh3 Ra3+ 60.Kg4 Nf5 61.Re8+  1-0

[Event "EU-ch 9th"]
[Site "Plovdiv"]
[Date "2008.04.21"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Romanov,Evgeny"]
[Black "Bologan,Viktor"]
[Result "1-0"]
1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 g6 3.c4 f5 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nc3 c6 8.b4 c5 9.bxc5 dxc5 10.e3 Nc6 11.Bb2 Rb8 12.Qe2 e6 13.Rad1 Qa5 14.Ne5 cxd4 15.exd4 Nxe5 16.Qxe5 Qxe5 17.dxe5 Ng4 18.Ba3 Nxe5 19.Bxf8 Kxf8 20.Nb5 a6 21.Nd6 Ke7 22.c5 Nd7 23.Nxc8+ Rxc8 24.Bxb7 Rxc5 
25.Bxa6 Ra5 26.Bc4 Nc5 27.Rb1 Bd4 28.Kg2 e5 29.Rfc1 g5 30.Rc2 f4 31.Rb5 Ra7 32.Bg8 Nd3 33.Kf1 Kd6 34.f3 h5 35.Ke2 Nc5 36.Rb6+ Kd7 37.gxf4 gxf4 38.Rh6 Ra3 39.Bd5 h4 40.Kf1 h3 41.Rxh3 Kd6 42.Bg8 Rd3 43.Kg2 Rd1 44.Rh6+ Ke7 45.Bd5 Be3 46.Ba8 Rd8 47.Bb7 Rb8 48.Bd5 Rd8 49.Rh7+ Kf6 50.Bc4 e4 51.fxe4 Nxe4 52.Rf7+ Ke5 53.Re7+ Kd4 54.Be6 Nd2 55.Rd7+ Rxd7 56.Bxd7 f3+ 57.Kg3 f2 58.Bb5 f1=Q 59.Bxf1 Nxf1+ 60.Kg4 Bd2 61.Kh3 Bc3 62.a4 Ne3 63.Rxc3 Kxc3 64.a5 Nc4 65.a6 Nb6 66.a7 Kb4 67.Kg3 Ka5 68.h4 Ka6 69.h5  1-0

Btw the only player I know who plays this opening regularly is Reinderman and iirc he only lost a few games and those were against players who would have beaten him most probably anyway, so there is still hope for you guys (no way to treat a 200+ rated player):
[Event "Mindsports"]
[Site "Beijing CHN"]
[Date "2008.10.04"]
[EventDate "2008.10.04"]
[Round "11"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Wang Yue"]
[Black "Dimitri Reinderman"]
[ECO "A88"]
[WhiteElo "2736"]
[BlackElo "2543"]
1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 d6 4. Nf3 g6 5. g3 Bg7 6. Bg2 O-O 7. O-O c6 8. b3 Qa5 9. Bd2 Qc7 10. Qc2 e5 11. dxe5 dxe5 12. e4 f4 13. Rae1 Bg4 14. gxf4 exf4 15. e5 Nh5 16. Ne4 Nd7 17. Neg5 Nxe5 18. Bc3 Rae8 19. Nxe5 Bxe5 20. h3 Bf5 21. Qb2 Bxc3 22. Qxc3 Qd7 23. Rd1 Qg7 24. Qxg7+ Kxg7 25. Rd2 Rd8 26. Rfd1 Rxd2 27. Rxd2 Nf6 28. Nf3 Re8 29. Kf1 h6 30. h4 Re7 31. b4 Ne4 32. Rd4 Kf6 33. Nd2 Nxd2+ 34. Rxd2 g5 35. hxg5+ hxg5 36. Bf3 g4 37. Bd1 Re4 38. Bb3 f3 39. a3 Ke5 40. c5 Rd4 41. Rb2 Rd3 42. Ke1 Be4 43. a4 Kd4 44. Bd1 Rc3 45. Rd2+ Bd3 46. Rb2 a6 47. Kd2 Ra3 48. a5 g3 49. fxg3 f2 50. Be2 f1=Q 51. Bxf1 Bxf1 52. Rb1 Bc4 53. Rd1 Rxg3 54. Kc2+ Bd3+ 55. Kb2 Ke5 0-1

  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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bragesjo
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #8 - 06/13/09 at 11:08:52
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Andrew Martins dvd "ABC of the Leningrad Dutch" shows that black can play extremly solidly in Leningrad dutch main line by playing 8 .. c6. Computers fail to see any advantage at all in main line 9 d5 e5. In a recent tournamnet iI tried the c6 system against a much higher rated player and he did not know theory and played some other move and I got the better position. Then I made a mistake later on and he got the better position but i somehow managed to draw. The day after, when the tournamnets last rounds started he told me that he had looked at the line and hes conclusion was that if white does not play d5 he could even risk getting into a worse position. The recent games at 2600 + level that I mentioned (followed live over Internet) was all in 8 .. c6 and I dont think black lost a single of those games.
  
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #7 - 06/12/09 at 16:14:09
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Like it!  Grin
  
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #6 - 06/12/09 at 15:51:12
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"There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's chess openings and the Dutch." - Top player
  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #5 - 06/12/09 at 14:02:14
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Maybe it is because they are top players?
You dont see them playing many Ponziani's, Budapests or Marshall defenses either. Prolly because playing such openings against a very good player increases your chance of losing. And top players dislike losing.
Even when some top player starts playing it it will only be an initial success as those top players will find ways to show why the openings isnt as good as others. This is what happened to openings who recently had such an outburst, like with Moro's Albin and Chigorin defenses.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #4 - 06/11/09 at 21:23:30
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My main weapon against 1.d4 is Dutch for some time and believe it or not but I have not lost any single game with this opening. (I am around 2150) Having said that I also find it hard to win with Dutch (I am not sure why) although I play various Leningrad lines, considered to be one of the most dynamic openings of all.
As for top players, I know that some top players give it a go (Kamsky's last Leningrad was quite a success) but that is a rare bird in top games to say the least. I believe strong players chose to focus on more solid lines such as Slav or Nimzo etc.
  
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Re: Why do not top players play the dutch?
Reply #3 - 06/11/09 at 15:33:58
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Dutch is considered tiny bit weaker then other openings at top level. And fashion offcourse.
  
'Experts vs The Sicilian' is a great book, but it is not the Bible. - TopNotch
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