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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch (Read 211486 times)
Ametanoitos
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #91 - 07/12/09 at 00:08:39
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As we are now looking at the position in the club a player here suggested 14.Qc3 Nc6 15.f3 exf3 16.Bxf3 Bb7 17.a3 with the idea 18.b4 without putting a rook at the d file. We have not an engine here to check if this gives white something but it seems to provide some pressure. The problem is that if black plays my initial suggestion of an early Qe7 there is no Qc8 as mr Buecker suggested. Maybe 17...Qb8 again? and after 18.b4 Rf7?
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #90 - 07/11/09 at 23:57:57
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Also another question rises. If better is 17...Qc8 (as mr Buecker pointed out) what Black should play after 14.Qc3? Now 14...Nc6 15.Rad1 (15.a3 Bb7 16.b4 Qb8 maybe is a solution) and if  15...Bb7 16.a3 Rd8 or 16.f3 exf3 17.Bxf3 Qc8! transposing but what after 16.Rd6? Rybka reccomends 16...Rd8 17.Rfd1 Rxd6 18.Rxd6 Nd8 and 18.exd6 e5.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #89 - 07/11/09 at 23:37:45
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Is 13...Qd3 bad? After 14.Qxd3 exd3 15.Nf3 Nd7 16.Bd2 Nf6 17.Re3 Ne4 18.Rxe3 Nxd2 is Black really worse?


This discussion about chess being dead and engines being so strong etc reminds me Rowson's Chess for Zebras. I have seen positions which Rybka doesn't understand at all and give false evaluations. And i think where will always be such positions in Chess, a game that will never be solved and can be proven that it will never be (simple computer science).

@Mr Buecker:

Do you think that 12...Bxe5 is best or Black can do better with another move?
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #88 - 07/11/09 at 21:25:28
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1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.Nf3 d5 5.0-0 Bd6 6.c4 c6 7.Qc2 0-0 8.Nc3 Ne4 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.Bg5 Qe8 11.Ne5 c5 12.Be3 Bxe5 (suggested by Ametanoitos) 13.dxe5 b6

brabo wrote on 07/11/09 at 17:45:39:

Ametanoitos wrote on 07/11/09 at 12:51:16:
[quote]

In the line 14.f3 exf3 15.Bxf3 Nc6 16.Qc3 Bb7 17.Rad1 (or 17.a3) i'll preffer 17...Qe7 and if 18.Rd6 Na5 19.Rfd1 Bxf3 20.exf3 i'll have to be precise for some moves but at the end i'll manage to get the position i want with my good knight against the "bad" bishop after 20...Qe8 21.b3 Nb7 and exchanges will happen at the d file.


Here your analysis is once more sloppy because it permits the cheap tactic 19. Bc5: with big advantage for white.


Instead of 17...Qe7 18.Rd6 Nd8, more precise seems 17...Qc8 18.a3 Na5 19. Rd6 Bxf3 20.exf3 Nb7 21.Rd3 Rd8 =. White's bishop can't do much. Personally I'd prefer 11.Nd2 Qh5 12.Be3 Qxe2 13.Rae1 Qh5 14.f3, sacrificing a pawn for having a strong knight vs the Bc8. I can't claim that this gives a significant plus, but I'd prefer White.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #87 - 07/11/09 at 20:55:21
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One last entry on my part - feel free to move it to General Chess or whatever.

Quote:
Chess is seen as a science and not anymore as a game, sport or art,...


Come to think of it, isn't Science the investigation of Nature or the Rules of the Universe - while chess is something created by Man. So, it's more like theology than science isn't it?!
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #86 - 07/11/09 at 20:32:19
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Even for us. I am old enough for having played games which were adjourned. I also call the introduction of the Fischer-clock a major change of the rules.
So according to Brabo's argument chess is only a few years old.

Doesn't this debate belong in another section? Craig?
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TalJechin
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #85 - 07/11/09 at 20:27:25
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Quote:
Correct but after adaptation of the rules, you can't call it chess anymore as we call chess today.


I wonder what they called chess before the double pawn step, en passant, castling, bishops moving more than one square and not jumping over pawns, the queen moving as far in all directions...

Chess has already changed a lot, though not for us, yet...
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #84 - 07/11/09 at 20:00:42
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TalJechin wrote on 07/11/09 at 19:35:09:


Even if the game is 'solved' as a win or draw no human would ever comprehend such a solution.

That is correct. I've heard that in four on a row only 3 players in the world are capable to play the game perfectly. That game only has a fraction of the complexity of chess.

TalJechin wrote on 07/11/09 at 19:35:09:

People will always enjoy playing board games no matter what. Besides, if needed the rules can always be changed, squares, pieces, extra boards added etc etc.

Correct but after adaptation of the rules, you can't call it chess anymore as we call chess today.

TalJechin wrote on 07/11/09 at 19:35:09:

But people leaving corr chess sounds like a healthy sign - what's the point of corr chess if you're only the computer attendant and not the player??

Some people use correspondence chess to check the soundness of their favourite systems against optimal opposition. You could consider it as a small laboratory where people are using computers to execute some tests. Chess is seen as a science and not anymore as a game, sport or art,...
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #83 - 07/11/09 at 19:58:23
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[quote author=TalJechin link=1245104259/75#82 date=1247340909

But people leaving corr chess sounds like a healthy sign - what's the point of corr chess if you're only the computer attendant and not the player?? [/quote]

Totally agree! Unless you enjoy and try to benefit from playing Computer engine+human against Computer engine+human. It could be a learning experience.

"... Sverre Johnsen is an enthusiastic chess analyst, researcher... Ivan Bern is a Correspondence world Champion ..."

Do you really think they haven't utilized the computer? Still they have produced a wonderful book for humans.
  
What kind of proof is that?
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TalJechin
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #82 - 07/11/09 at 19:35:09
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brabo wrote on 07/11/09 at 17:25:58:

There will always be players playing chess but less than today once the game has been solved. Games as four on a row and checkers on 64 squares have lost quite some players once the games were solved. 
Correspondence chess has lost 90% of the players in some countries already after the raise of the engines.


Even if the game is 'solved' as a win or draw no human would ever comprehend such a solution. People will always enjoy playing board games no matter what. Besides, if needed the rules can always be changed, squares, pieces, extra boards added etc etc. 

But people leaving corr chess sounds like a healthy sign - what's the point of corr chess if you're only the computer attendant and not the player??
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #81 - 07/11/09 at 17:58:08
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/11/09 at 16:37:04:
What i want to say is that engines like short term threats. The big question is: can white use these short term threats to cause something concrete? If the answer is yes then white can claim an advantage. If not then Black's future is bright! So, at a practical level black's position is great, from a theoritical one i think this is an open problem. There will always be some sneaky things engines see to cause minor problems and evaluate this position as slightly better for white but there is alsothe horizon effect! Untill now i haven't discover something concrete for White, so i think that Black's position is playable. Do you want me to say that Black is slightly worse? Maybe he is, i don't know. What i know is that his position is sound. At least he is not losing! We can agree on that at least i think!

The general plan is to play Nc6, Bb7 and Qe7 before Rd8 i think and when white plays f3 we play exf3 and try to exchange the bishops. For me that;s enough. Also i fed the position in other engines like Shreder and Hiarcs and they evaluate the position as equal. Rybka also changes her mind after some time and decreases whites little advantage. So, i suspect that the position is equal (or very slightly worse at least) for black.


From practical point much more dubious positions are playable. Don't misunderstand me, I am playing the position with black not white on the board and will keep on playing it because I know that Rybka will never be my opponent on the board. However for corresponce I have a problem because my opponent is often Rybka + (+ = some human input) in disguise. If white can keep on making this small advantage last for several months or years then I prefer to avoid these positions in correspondence because it is really no fun to defend for such long period. I've found lines in which Rybka was able to keep a small advantage over move 35 so you must be a real masochist to enter such system in correspondence chess.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #80 - 07/11/09 at 17:53:56
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Can't argue against that. 
The President of Digital Equipment argued that the PC was not a challenge. At that time it was difficult to argue against that.

At least I will still love playing chess. Hope there is at least one other person with the same inclination.

I am sure Ametanoitos will be on the barricade but I am afraid that to me he will not be more easy to play against than the computer engine.
  
What kind of proof is that?
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #79 - 07/11/09 at 17:45:39
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/11/09 at 12:51:16:
[quote]

In the line 14.f3 exf3 15.Bxf3 Nc6 16.Qc3 Bb7 17.Rad1 (or 17.a3) i'll preffer 17...Qe7 and if 18.Rd6 Na5 19.Rfd1 Bxf3 20.exf3 i'll have to be precise for some moves but at the end i'll manage to get the position i want with my good knight against the "bad" bishop after 20...Qe8 21.b3 Nb7 and exchanges will happen at the d file.


Here your analysis is once more sloppy because it permits the cheap tactic 19. Bc5: with big advantage for white. 
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #78 - 07/11/09 at 17:25:58
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Göran wrote on 07/11/09 at 16:59:39:
The car is moving faster than you, the airoplane is flying high in the sky, the computer engine is calculating better than you ...

...still you love looking at 100m race between humans, you still love hanggliding, why wouldnt you still love playing chess?

There will always be players playing chess but less than today once the game has been solved. Games as four on a row and checkers on 64 squares have lost quite some players once the games were solved. 
Correspondence chess has lost 90% of the players in some countries already after the raise of the engines.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #77 - 07/11/09 at 16:59:39
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The car is moving faster than you, the airoplane is flying high in the sky, the computer engine is calculating better than you ...

...still you love looking at 100m race between humans, you still love hanggliding, why wouldnt you still love playing chess?
  
What kind of proof is that?
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