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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Repertoire against d4! (Read 13227 times)
Stigma
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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #19 - 07/01/09 at 18:04:55
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TN wrote on 06/30/09 at 22:07:48:

They are difficult for both sides, but that is partly why I recommend these openings. By creating difficult, complicated positions, the player develops a familiarity with tactics and the initiative more quickly than if he/she played a 'solid' QGD. The games would probably contain a lot of mistakes by both sides as the players try to work their way through the complications, but for a low-rated player this clearly shows them what areas of their game they need to improve, and this also provides them with better chances of scoring an upset win or draw against a higher-rated player.

There are plenty of tactics and initiatives in the Tarrasch and the Benkö too, but I still feel that both strategically and tactically they are easier to understand than the KID and Benoni. The idea would be to "learn to walk before you try to run". I have nothing against the KID and the Benoni per se, but I have tried teaching both to youngsters and found it difficult.

Btw. the Tango also fits on my "recommended" list; very few white players below 2000 have anything specific prepared for this, except maybe if they happen to play 4.Qc2 against the Nimzo-Indian (4...Nc6 5.Nf3 transposes). The typical reaction is 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.e4 or 5.Nf3, but those positions are easier to play for black than for white (unless white has prepared some of the dangerous lines previously discussed on this forum, that is!).
  

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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #18 - 07/01/09 at 15:03:30
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In the one game where I faced the Noteboom I tried 5. g3 Nf6 6. Bg2 Nbd7 7. 0-0  and got a decent position. Don't know what theory says about this line but white seems to get some compensation.
  
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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #17 - 07/01/09 at 11:10:29
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Antillian wrote on 06/30/09 at 22:50:03:
Stigma wrote on 06/30/09 at 22:21:12:

Another opening that is similarly difficult for White to handle may be the Noteboom, but how often will you actually get to play it? Though actually d4/c4/Nc3/Nf3 are auto-pilot moves for many lowly-rated 1.d4 players, and there's the Noteboom right in their face!


I recall somewhere on this board that no lesser than IM John Cox said that as far as he can tell the Noteboom refutes the Queen's Gambit. However, interestedly enough, Lars Schandorff allows it his new "Playing the Queen's Gambit - A Grandmaster guide" So clearly it is not so clearcut.


It tells a lot that Lars Schandorff, giving absolute mainlines and great analysis on topical lines in all major branches of the Queen´s gambit suggests a very rare sideline against the Noteboom which main merit is that it is not refuted because nobody plays it. At least, White needs less theory to get no advantage than in the mainlines.

If he wanted to avoid the Noteboom, he had to change a lot of other lines in his repertoire, since he would not have been able to reach his Lg5-lines when Black played the triangle.

White definitely should avoid sharp Noteboom mainlines by playing something like 4.Qc2 or 4.Bg5. Cox assessment is a little bit exaggerated, but has a point.
  
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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #16 - 06/30/09 at 22:51:58
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Stigma wrote on 06/30/09 at 22:21:12:
kylemeister wrote on 06/30/09 at 21:53:41:
Part of what Stigma said reminds me, I used to say half-seriously that the Cambridge Springs wins by force against players who are sub-1600 or so ...

I can believe that. The CS is not so well-known, and in the main lines where Black can grab a pawn, nurturing White's long-term initiative with the bishop pair takes sophistication. I must confess that even now I don't play into theoretical Cambridge Springs lines unless I've done a lot of specific preparation.


I was thinking more of the frequency with which Black seems to meet e.g. 7. Bd3, and other ways White can go wrong in a hurry.   
« Last Edit: 07/01/09 at 01:09:32 by kylemeister »  
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Antillian
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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #15 - 06/30/09 at 22:50:03
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Stigma wrote on 06/30/09 at 22:21:12:

Another opening that is similarly difficult for White to handle may be the Noteboom, but how often will you actually get to play it? Though actually d4/c4/Nc3/Nf3 are auto-pilot moves for many lowly-rated 1.d4 players, and there's the Noteboom right in their face!


I recall somewhere on this board that no lesser than IM John Cox said that as far as he can tell the Noteboom refutes the Queen's Gambit. However, interestedly enough, Lars Schandorff allows it his new "Playing the Queen's Gambit - A Grandmaster guide" So clearly it is not so clearcut.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #14 - 06/30/09 at 22:21:12
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kylemeister wrote on 06/30/09 at 21:53:41:
Part of what Stigma said reminds me, I used to say half-seriously that the Cambridge Springs wins by force against players who are sub-1600 or so ...

I can believe that. The CS is not so well-known, and in the main lines where Black can grab a pawn, nurturing White's long-term initiative with the bishop pair takes sophistication. I must confess that even now I don't play into theoretical Cambridge Springs lines unless I've done a lot of specific preparation.

Another opening that is similarly difficult for White to handle may be the Noteboom, but how often will you actually get to play it? Though actually d4/c4/Nc3/Nf3 are auto-pilot moves for many lowly-rated 1.d4 players, and there's the Noteboom right in their face!
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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TN
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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #13 - 06/30/09 at 22:07:48
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Kafka: Quote:
Thanks for the reply TN. My current rating is 1419 and I generally like to play tactical, attacking games. I've been thinking about KID but would like a book which contains white's other options other than 2.c4.


The obvious recommendation for me is Dembo's 'Fighting the Anti-King's Indians' for meeting 1.d4 Nf6 without 2.c4 (and 1.Nf3/1.c4), and 'Dealing with d4 Deviations' by Cox for most other openings (other than KID). 

For someone that likes tactical, attacking games, the KID seems the most logical choice, and it also contains the advantage that it isn't easy for White to avoid a complicated game without making concessions. 

smrex13: Quote:
I was wondering if you might offer some elaboration on why you chose the openings you mention.  There's a lot of discussion about playing certain openings vs. 1.e4 depending on your level and rating, but very little about facing 1.d4.  Might you provide more info?  I'd be interested to hear your opinions.


The main reason is due to personal preference and my feelings at the time of posting, but I recommended the King's Indian and Modern Benoni for <1400 players because starting out players need to learn to play tactical, attacking chances and become familiar with concepts such as the initiative and attack. In my view the KID is the best choice for this, but the Modern Benoni is a nearly equivalent option if the KID is not to Black's liking.

I recommended the QGD or Slav for the <1700 player because these openings are very solid and have a good reputation, and they are also relatively easy for a club player to learn. My main recommendation would be the Slav because it is a solid yet active defence, but I offer the QGD as an alternative for players dissatisfied with some variations of the Slav (e.g. Slav Exchange or the main line). 

For <2000 players, I recommended the NID/QID/Catalan/anti-d4 Deviations and the Benko. My recommendation is the former because it usually leads to positional/strategic middlegames, and at this level it is important for a player to develop a strong familiarity with simple and complex positional concepts. In my view, this combination is one opening which assists this process in a player's development. 

Naturally some players will not like the Catalan or other lines, so for this reason I offered the Benko as an alternative because it has a decent theoretical reputation (not as good as the NID/QID but still sufficient) and offers a positional struggle for Black, as his compensation for the pawn (in the Accepted lines) is almost entirely positional. Also, many players below 2000 will prefer to decline the pawn as White, which does not threaten a well-versed Black.

Kylemeister: Quote:
I find it quite curious to recommend the King's Indian or Modern Benoni to sub-1400 players, instead of some sort of QG (well, 1...d5).  But of course this opens up one of those perennial cans of worms.


There is nothing wrong with recommending 1.d4 d5 as it is solid and will provide the new player with a good idea of how to develop their pieces, but I think it is more important for the player at this stage to develop a feel and understanding of tactics and the initiative.

Markovich: Quote:
There is just one d4 defense that I would recommend to players at that level, and that is the Tarrasch.  But yes, it is a perennial debate here.


I agree that this is a good choice, but the only disadvantage of it is that White can avoid it with his alternatives to 2.c4. However, these lines are not theoretically dangerous for Black, and the Tarrasch also contains the advantage that most sub-1400 players will not have a prepared system to meet the Tarrasch. So I support the suggestion of the Tarrasch. Smiley

Smyslov_Fan: Quote:
Another choice is the QGA.  The main problem with the QGA for the novice is learning to defend against 3.e4.  But the same arguments can be made for any opening system, that White has aggressive alternatives.


The QGA is another good possibility, but only for a positional player. I once read that the main goal for Black in this opening is to neutralise White's slight initiative, but this should not concern a novice player.

Against 3.e4, I would recommend 3...e5 4.Nf3 ed4 5.Bc4 Nc6 which has a good reputation and usually provides Black with active counterplay. For a higher-rated player, I would recommend 3...Nc6.

Quote:
Now that I am wiser (?!) I would look for defences that are relatively easy to understand thematically for Black, while at the same time be cynical enough to exploit knowledge of which openings white players on lower levels often struggle with! To that end I think the QGD Tarrasch and the Benkö Gambit are great options. If you had wanted something more solid/positional I would probably suggest the Nimzo/Bogo-Indian combo as well.

I don't agree with the recommendation of the Benoni or the King's Indian; I think on lower levels they are very difficult openings for both sides and the games could easily turn into strategical "comedies of errors".


I agree with your first paragraph - the Tarrasch and Benko are definitely good practical choices. The Nimzo/Bogo may be a better choice for a positional player, but it is a matter of taste. 

They are difficult for both sides, but that is partly why I recommend these openings. By creating difficult, complicated positions, the player develops a familiarity with tactics and the initiative more quickly than if he/she played a 'solid' QGD. The games would probably contain a lot of mistakes by both sides as the players try to work their way through the complications, but for a low-rated player this clearly shows them what areas of their game they need to improve, and this also provides them with better chances of scoring an upset win or draw against a higher-rated player.







  

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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #12 - 06/30/09 at 21:53:41
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Part of what Stigma said reminds me, I used to say half-seriously that the Cambridge Springs wins by force against players who are sub-1600 or so ...
  
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Stigma
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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #11 - 06/30/09 at 20:57:27
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I'm not a good example on how improvers should face 1.d4; I started with the Chigorin before switching to the English Defence and the Leningrad. Nothing classical there...

Now that I am wiser (?!) I would look for defences that are relatively easy to understand thematically for Black, while at the same time be cynical enough to exploit knowledge of which openings white players on lower levels often struggle with! To that end I think the QGD Tarrasch and the Benkö Gambit are great options. If you had wanted something more solid/positional I would probably suggest the Nimzo/Bogo-Indian combo as well.

I don't agree with the recommendation of the Benoni or the King's Indian; I think on lower levels they are very difficult openings for both sides and the games could easily turn into strategical "comedies of errors".
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #10 - 06/30/09 at 20:13:14
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I agree with Markovich that the QGD Tarrasch is an excellent opening choice for the novice player.

However, I disagree that this should be Black's only choice.

I know the QGD is full of traps, move-order subtleties and all sorts of other problems.  But it remains a classic opening that the beginning player should learn at some time.

Another choice is the QGA.  The main problem with the QGA for the novice is learning to defend against 3.e4.  But the same arguments can be made for any opening system, that White has aggressive alternatives.

The main openings I would recommend against for the novice is the "triangle defense" (d5, e6, c6) or the Stonewall because they tend to encourage anti-chess.

I would also discourage almost all Indian defenses, the Budapest, and the Polish.  Perhaps I would make an exception for the Nimzo-Indian.

I would not recommend, but would not discourage the Chigorin or the Keres (1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5).  Both of these openings allow the novice to experiment with classical developing ideas, learn concrete lines, and are not likely to blow up in Black's face.

These are tournament-quality openings.  I would encourage my novice to experiment in blitz games with all sorts of openings, including unsound gambits and Indians.  After all, chess is supposed to be fun.  

If a student is taught that certain openings should not be played at all, then s/he may grow up presuming that the BDG is bad, QED. The BDG is bad, but it takes concrete work to prove it. 

Btw, QED is the latest opening invention:  Questionably Exciting Defense.  Wink  
  
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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #9 - 06/30/09 at 17:33:41
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There is just one d4 defense that I would recommend to players at that level, and that is the Tarrasch.  But yes, it is a perennial debate here.
  

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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #8 - 06/30/09 at 16:45:10
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I find it quite curious to recommend the King's Indian or Modern Benoni to sub-1400 players, instead of some sort of QG (well, 1...d5).  But of course this opens up one of those perennial cans of worms.
  
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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #7 - 06/30/09 at 12:42:16
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Shouldn't this topic have been moved to "General Chess"?

Oops.  Markovic beat me by a couple of seconds.
 
  

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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #6 - 06/30/09 at 12:42:11
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Arrrrrgh!!  I meant to move this to "General Chess," but I made the wrong click!  Would you please correct this, Tony?
  

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Re: Repertoire against d4!
Reply #5 - 06/30/09 at 12:40:34
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TN,

I was wondering if you might offer some elaboration on why you chose the openings you mention.  There's a lot of discussion about playing certain openings vs. 1.e4 depending on your level and rating, but very little about facing 1.d4.  Might you provide more info?  I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

Thanks,
Scott

I will offer the following brief suggestions for now:

<1400: King's Indian or Modern Benoni
<1700: Queen's Gambit Declined or Slav
<2000: Nimzo/QID/Catalan/Cox's book or Benko

Note: In order to provide more precise, constructive advice, I would need more information on Kafka's style/rating/current openings.
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