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Poll closed Question: Should this Thread's name be changed?
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No    
  2 (10.5%)
Yes:    
  2 (10.5%)
Romanticism and Chess    
  0 (0.0%)
Gambit on Chess    
  3 (15.8%)
Vertically Isolated Dispersions    
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Great Train Wrecks    
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Others:  (50 characters or less)    
  3 (15.8%)
The Art of Flogging a Dead Horse    
  5 (26.3%)




Total votes: 19
« Last Modified by: Smyslov_Fan on: 07/17/09 at 23:52:47 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Art of Flogging a Dead Horse (formerly C in C) (Read 40630 times)
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #77 - 07/18/09 at 21:08:50
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Very good post IMHO, particularly the last paragraph.

I do think LDZ has a lot of positives to contribute to the forum, and as stated earlier I sympathise with his approach to chess, but some heed of that last para would be in order.

It is true that the wheels can come off if you realise that an opening line is unsound.  For instance I used to be a regular practicioner of the main line Englund Gambit, scoring well with it in all forms of play, but having seen the strength of 8.Nd5!, I have stopped using it in slow games, wary that an opponent could stumble into that line- though it still gets regular outings in casual and rapid games.
  
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #76 - 07/18/09 at 12:26:27
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Ironically, I think most GMs would call playing 1...b6 a very courageous thing to do, as well as 1.e4 e6 2.d4 b6. Whereas most GMs would call playing the Zilbermints Gambit (any one of the 7,216 them) something far stronger (and less flattering) than 'brave'.

I admire the type of chess LDZ tries to play. In that regard he is a man after my own heart - I regularly play all sorts of gambits, both known and unknown. I dabble with moves like 3...Na5 against the Ruy Lopez. As white, I play an early g4 against nearly all 1.d4 Nf6 systems (when I'm not playing the BDG). My heart sinks a little when someone plays 1.e4 g6 against me (not least because I am far too apathetic to ever sit down and study this variation) and my beloved Belgrade, Reti and other gambits are ruled out. 

However, like most people here, I do not admire his personality, which is brash, arrogant and alienating. It is not a case of "saying what I think", as he put it - I do this as well, and have made my opinion on a lot of openings clear in the past, but yet I have never come in for the widespread abuse and chagrin of the forum that LDZ has. MNb and Markovich, as well as Smyslov and Willempie, are also people I regard as "straightshooters", and similarly they have not caused the problems that LDZ continues to. LDZ is antagonistic, and deliberately so at times in my view. He does also have moments of kindness (as MNb displayed), and sometimes can contribute very interesting ideas and analysis. But he is also completely unable to accept any form of constructive (or otherwise) criticism, either personally or directed at his ideas. It is fine being a pioneer of gambits and originality in the opening, but when people post not one, but several, routes to advantage against your openings, and you still fail to accept them as inferior and then continue to spout off the cliched 'THERE ARE NO COMPUTERS IN OTB CHESS AND I WILL BEAT YOU WITH MY OPENINGS' comments, you will antagonise.

And that, HTH, is exactly the point. LDZ is not a big enough man to admit when he is wrong. When his lines are refuted, he does one of four things:

a) He goes silent for anywhere between 3 and 18 months on that thread, before reactivating it with some meaningless G/3 ICC game;
b) He churns out the sickening line above, or a variation of it, and ignores the refutation completely;
c) He (rarely) comes back with an improvement, usually combined with an abusive or unnecessarily harsh comment such as "Rubbish! Nonsense! White can just play .... instead and is completely fine!" And usually these revised lines fall flat quite quickly, and the cycle continues - I am yet to see LDZ refute a refutation convincingly, and most of his gambits remain theoretically impotent.
d) He screams cowardice at a move like 9...c6 in the Euwe Defence BDG, or 4.Nc3 against the 3...Nge7 Englund - despite the fact that they are actually just objectively very strong moves. 4.Nc3 especially, since there is no free pawn on offer, and the move contains the very strong idea of Nd5 setting up an attacking platform - not at all cowardice in my view. I would be interested to see his opinion of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.e4 - white offers the pawn back, intending to wallop through with f4-f5-f6 and attack. Cowardice, or bravery?

In fact, surely when your opponent offers you a dodgy gambit... taking what is, in essence, a free pawn is pretty cowardly. I would prefer to forward the alternative view that declining a free pawn, and choosing to try and outplay the opponent in an even position, is in fact a far braver thing to do. But not all have the inclination or skill to do this, just as many do not have the inclination or "balls" to offer such gambits in the first place. 

In the end, do what makes you happy on a chess board. But the main point is this: This is an opening THEORY forum. We are here to discuss THEORY. Not practicality, not cowardice, just theory. Does an opening give equality, or is it junk? Does a new gambit offer an unclear position, or can it be refuted with simple OTB play? That is what we discuss here, and that is where LDZ's inventions fall flat. Not in practical terms - I've won OTB with openings like 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.d4?, or 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Nc3 f5? OTB. But I would never be so arrogant or close-minded to say that everyone else in the world was wrong, and these openings were good. In theoretical terms, a lot of what I play is/was junk. I get told it all the time, I'm willing to accept it. I still win with it. 

I think LDZ is scared to accept that theoretically his openings are junk... I think he feels that admitting this will almost instantly render them less effective. He might even be right - perhaps if you lose some faith in an already dubious line, then the wheels will come off. But I think this fear is the real cowardice.
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #75 - 07/18/09 at 07:49:23
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The current title of the thread is fine, it just needs to be in CAPS. Grin
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #74 - 07/18/09 at 05:25:26
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MNb wrote on 07/18/09 at 03:53:29:
Hadron wrote on 07/18/09 at 02:47:42:
But I do think some of the comments relating to the thread name and him personally are inappropriate.


Perhaps that's what makes the thread very interesting to you? Or maybe it's the part where LDZ calls 1...b6 and 1...g6 yellow cowardice? That's LDZ's central issue. You see, I take that as an insult, as I have played 1...g6 and 1.e4 e6 2.d4 b6 myself. At the other hand I also have played the Jänisch-Schliemann, the Ryder, the Von Hennig-Milner Barry and a few other Blackmar-Diemer related Gambits. So in LDZ's terminology that makes me a courageous coward. Very interesting indeed.

You do realize that it is a game? Once you wash away all the wishy washy labels, it is only a game. I think if one is going to be 'insulted' over comments about a game, one shudders how you might react if someone stood up and told you you are a !@#&%^....
Lighten up dood there are more important things to get upset over....
Thanks
HTH
Angry
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #73 - 07/18/09 at 03:53:29
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Hadron wrote on 07/18/09 at 02:47:42:
But I do think some of the comments relating to the thread name and him personally are inappropriate.


Perhaps that's what makes the thread very interesting to you? Or maybe it's the part where LDZ calls 1...b6 and 1...g6 yellow cowardice? That's LDZ's central issue. You see, I take that as an insult, as I have played 1...g6 and 1.e4 e6 2.d4 b6 myself. At the other hand I also have played the Jänisch-Schliemann, the Ryder, the Von Hennig-Milner Barry and a few other Blackmar-Diemer related Gambits. So in LDZ's terminology that makes me a courageous coward. Very interesting indeed.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #72 - 07/18/09 at 02:47:42
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Greetings
A very interesting thread and if I may:
Cowardice in chess. I really do not understand the collation between the two to begin with. Really, I ask you, what person in their right mind does something simply because they can or it is in front of them? It may have made Johnny Knoxville and ‘Jackass’ mega millions of dollars but what practically does it have in chess. Is that not the point of view Lev is perusing here? 
If someone presents you with a pawn or a piece, One should simply take it because you can or even should. One does not consider the compensation that is going to be given away?…One does not consider the initiative that might be supplied?...One does not even consider if they know what theory if any exists around said pawn or piece offer?...Just take what’s on offer because of the perceived glory and honour in doing so rather then suffer the shame of cowardice? At the risk of coming under the thumb of the moderators, what a load of old bollicks. Not matter how you wrap chess up and call it what you want, it is still a game. Like any game, you either win or lose ( and if the game itself allows, draw also) and to blithely enter into a contest to simply follow the lead of ones opponent on the grounds not to is cowardice is a sure fire recipe to get rodgered before you get any where. As the saying goes ‘look before you leap’ which can be paraphrase with ‘think before you take’.
Lev Zilbermintz. I am not a big fan of his, not by a long shot. But I do think some of the comments relating to the thread name and him personally are inappropriate. Love him or hate him, I think his passion for chess is most admirable if somewhat misguided. I think Lev can be best described as a chess fundamentalist. Like most fundamentalists, his perception on things is very narrow but I think he is smart enough to admit when things are not right (Best illustrated by final conceding he only independently discovered the Nge7 line). So maybe, a little less vitriol?
Thanks
HTH
Angry
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #71 - 07/17/09 at 23:48:54
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I read somewhere once that discretion is the better part of valour.  I think I can confidently say that every one of us who has posted to this thread has lacked such valour. Embarrassed
  
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #70 - 07/17/09 at 18:14:54
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Re. computers:  they do not always make the best moves.  A case in point, I used Fritz to come up with the "new" suggestion in the Allgaier Gambit, 7.Bc4+ d5 8.Bxd5+ Kg7 9.Bxb7?! which it thought was a draw with best play.  But MNb referred to an article by Eric Schiller (of all authors!) showing the refutation of the line.

I agree with most of the rebuttals to Zilbermints's arguments, though I continue to disagree with Markovich's "the point of the game is to score and that's all that matters" posts.  The view itself is perfectly valid- and probably the best means of maximising one's results- but I object to the idea that it's the only correct way to approach chess.

There is another problem with Gambit's cowardice theory.  One game of mine went 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.c3 d5 (cue Gambit's cries of "yellow coward") and then continued 5.Bd3 dxc3 6.exd5 cxb2 7.Bxb2 Qxd5.  So this "coward" declines the gambit on move 4 only to accept a similar two-pawn gambit on moves 5 and 6!  This whole "cowardice" thing just doesn't work I'm afraid.

And certainly, a large majority of those who decline with 4...d5 would be inclined to accept the offered pawn after 5.e5? which winds up losing a pawn for next to nothing after 5...dxc3 6.Nxc3 d4 7.Nb5 Bc5 -/+.

Quote:
"Lev Zilbermints is the Most Courageous and Original Chess Player Ever and the Rest are Miserable Computer-Sucking Cowards"

Lol- I like that one!
  
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #69 - 07/17/09 at 18:04:09
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"The Thread Oroborus"

or

"Lev Zilbermints is the Most Courageous and Original Chess Player Ever and the Rest are Miserable Computer-Sucking Cowards"
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #68 - 07/17/09 at 16:48:01
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"The Art of Flogging a Dead Horse", by Leviticus D Zilbermints. 

It would be an entertaining book. I might actually own it already... let me check my archives...  Grin
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #67 - 07/17/09 at 15:04:36
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How about "Lev D Zilberrants"? 

or "(No) Computers In Chess"?
  
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #66 - 07/17/09 at 13:28:11
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Thread title "It Came from Another Dimension"
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #65 - 07/17/09 at 01:23:10
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Oh no, this is by far not the longest ridiculous thread yet. Have you forgotten Mr. Moody? Of course there are also a few strong ones on the BDG. You should come back with this remark when this thread has reached 15 pages at least. From experience I would say that it is likely to happen.

Gambit wrote on 07/16/09 at 21:29:02:
Please send me your postal address and email address. I will send you photocopies of the article I wrote in BDG World #79 about these lines.

Thanks!
Gambit


The problem with LDZ is that he is always nicer than I would expect.
Thanks.

Gambit wrote on 07/16/09 at 21:37:59:

I play man-against-man, not man against computer. Human brain against human brain, not against a computer program. To me, that is fair play.


You have repeated this ad nauseam. That is what I call unoriginal. I stand to that even if you invent a million new original openings.

Gambit wrote on 07/16/09 at 21:51:41:
the computer will find the best moves without mistakes.


Finally something new! And immediately it is wrong. No, the computer will not find the best moves without mistakes. At this very moment on the ICCF-server a tournament for the corr chess WCh is played. All the participants use computers, trust me. Still quite a few games do not end in a draw, which means that there is at least one mistake made.
  

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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #64 - 07/16/09 at 23:13:05
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/16/09 at 22:58:25:
Hi all, 

I am very much inclined to change the title of this thread.  Please let me know your thoughts.  For this poll, Creativity counts as much as democracy! Cool


I nominate the following:

(1) Here we go again
(2) Ad nauseum
(3) The miseducation of Gambit
(4) The longest most ridiculous thread on the board
(5) SIGH
  

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Re: Cowardice in Chess
Reply #63 - 07/16/09 at 22:58:25
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Hi all, 

I am very much inclined to change the title of this thread.  Please let me know your thoughts.  For this poll, Creativity counts as much as democracy! Cool
  
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