Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Classical Dutch without fianchetto (Read 9086 times)
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Re: Classical Dutch without fianchetto
Reply #11 - 08/27/09 at 10:23:09
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Paddy's post is an accurate description of the historical development of the ideas of the Classical Dutch. But, as he already implies, it would be a bit dangerous to conclude that Black should play ...b6 given the chance. In other words, the Rubinstein setup (d4, c4, Nc3) might pose more problems than thought several decades ago. Frankly I think eg Williams takes this too easy. When I am back home I will post a few sample lines.
The same is true for ...Bb4. Schwarz in 1964 already expressed some doubts if this move is really that strong. I suspect that lot of players prefer the move order 1.d4 f5 2.g3 because its convenient. Why spend time on a rare line if you can avoid it anyway?
  

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Re: Classical Dutch without fianchetto
Reply #10 - 08/24/09 at 20:42:24
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Quote:
The main point of White's g3 against the Dutch was to prevent or discourage Black from playing ...b6 and ...Bb7 and thus in a way "punish" him for playing ...f5, which blocks the other diagonal of the bishop. Thus, as in the French defence, the c8-bishop is often a "problem child" for Black in the Dutch.

Similarly the original point of White's delaying c4 was to prevent Black from being able to develop his dark-squared bishop outside the pawn chain, thus leaving him a little cramped if he has to play his bishop to e7, which otherwise would be a useful square for the queen, guarding the sensitive e6 square (thus making the combination of ...b6 and ...d6 less problematic) and connecting the rooks.

(The same thinking applies equally to Bird's opening, with reversed colours.)

Most of the 20th century development of the Dutch defence is based on this "background knowledge".

The implication is that, subject to certain move order constraints, if White does not prevent him by playing g3 and Bg2, Black can play ...b6 with confidence. If Black can also play ...Bb4 and ...Bxc3, all the better, especially if White's pawns are doubled. This interpretation of the Dutch has much in common with the "Dutch variation" of the Nimzo-Indian, e.g. 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e3 b6 5 Bd3 Bb7 6 Nf3 Ne4 7 Qc2 f5. In fact one can regard the early steps with the Nimzo-Indian (roughly in the period 1910-1925) as an attempt to reach the "ideal Dutch" formation by other means, e.g.

[Event "URS-ch01"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "1920.??.??"]
[Round "13"]
[White "Rabinovich, Ilya Leontievich"]
[Black "Alekhine, Alexander"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E43"]
[PlyCount "78"]
[EventDate "1920.10.04"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "15"]
[EventCountry "URS"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.07.01"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b6 3. c4 e6 4. Nc3 Bb7 5. e3 Bb4 6. Qc2 Ne4 7. Bd3 f5 8. O-O
Bxc3 9. bxc3 O-O 10. Nd2 Qh4 11. f3 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 Nc6 13. e4 fxe4 14. Bxe4 Na5
15. Rae1 Bxe4 16. Rxe4 Qh5 17. Qa4 Nxc4 18. Re2 b5 19. Qb3 Qf5 20. Rfe1 Rab8
21. Bc1 a5 22. Re4 a4 23. Qd1 Rbe8 24. Qe2 c5 25. Be3 cxd4 26. Bxd4 e5 27. f4
d6 28. h3 Re6 29. fxe5 dxe5 30. Bc5 Rf7 31. Rb1 h6 32. Rxb5 Nd2 33. Rxa4 Qc2
34. Rb8+ Kh7 35. Kh1 Rf1+ 36. Bg1 Rxg1+ 37. Kxg1 Qc1+ 38. Kf2 Rf6+ 39. Ke3 Nb1+
0-1

Of course, chess is very rich and complex game, so the above considerations should not be interpreted in too dogmatic a fashion.


"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."


Yes indeed! 
A very precise and convincing answer to a general question!
Thank you!
  
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Paddy
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Re: Classical Dutch without fianchetto
Reply #9 - 08/23/09 at 16:30:07
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Bibs wrote on 08/23/09 at 12:17:11:
Paddy wrote on 08/23/09 at 10:42:00:
The main point of White's g3 against the Dutch was to prevent or discourage Black from playing ...b6 and ...Bb7 and thus in a way "punish" him for playing ...f5, which blocks the other diagonal of the bishop. Thus, as in the French defence, the c8-bishop is often a "problem child" for Black in the Dutch.

Similarly the original point of White's delaying c4 was to prevent Black from being able to develop his dark-squared bishop outside the pawn chain, thus leaving him a little cramped if he has to play his bishop to e7, which otherwise would be a useful square for the queen, guarding the sensitive e6 square (thus making the combination of ...b6 and ...d6 less problematic) and connecting the rooks.

(The same thinking applies equally to Bird's opening, with reversed colours.)

Most of the 20th century development of the Dutch defence is based on this "background knowledge".

The implication is that, subject to certain move order constraints, if White does not prevent him by playing g3 and Bg2, Black can play ...b6 with confidence. If Black can also play ...Bb4 and ...Bxc3, all the better, especially if White's pawns are doubled. This interpretation of the Dutch has much in common with the "Dutch variation" of the Nimzo-Indian, e.g. 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e3 b6 5 Bd3 Bb7 6 Nf3 Ne4 7 Qc2 f5. In fact one can regard the early steps with the Nimzo-Indian (roughly in the period 1910-1925) as an attempt to reach the "ideal Dutch" formation by other means, e.g.

[Event "URS-ch01"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "1920.??.??"]
[Round "13"]
[White "Rabinovich, Ilya Leontievich"]
[Black "Alekhine, Alexander"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E43"]
[PlyCount "78"]
[EventDate "1920.10.04"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "15"]
[EventCountry "URS"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.07.01"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b6 3. c4 e6 4. Nc3 Bb7 5. e3 Bb4 6. Qc2 Ne4 7. Bd3 f5 8. O-O
Bxc3 9. bxc3 O-O 10. Nd2 Qh4 11. f3 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 Nc6 13. e4 fxe4 14. Bxe4 Na5
15. Rae1 Bxe4 16. Rxe4 Qh5 17. Qa4 Nxc4 18. Re2 b5 19. Qb3 Qf5 20. Rfe1 Rab8
21. Bc1 a5 22. Re4 a4 23. Qd1 Rbe8 24. Qe2 c5 25. Be3 cxd4 26. Bxd4 e5 27. f4
d6 28. h3 Re6 29. fxe5 dxe5 30. Bc5 Rf7 31. Rb1 h6 32. Rxb5 Nd2 33. Rxa4 Qc2
34. Rb8+ Kh7 35. Kh1 Rf1+ 36. Bg1 Rxg1+ 37. Kxg1 Qc1+ 38. Kf2 Rf6+ 39. Ke3 Nb1+
0-1

Of course, chess is very rich and complex game, so the above considerations should not be interpreted in too dogmatic a fashion.


"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."


Wonderfully lucid explanation Paddy. Do wish all chess book writers were blessed with similar clarity of thought and expression.


Wow Bibs, praise indeed; I feel quite touched! Smiley
  
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Re: Classical Dutch without fianchetto
Reply #8 - 08/23/09 at 12:17:11
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Paddy wrote on 08/23/09 at 10:42:00:
The main point of White's g3 against the Dutch was to prevent or discourage Black from playing ...b6 and ...Bb7 and thus in a way "punish" him for playing ...f5, which blocks the other diagonal of the bishop. Thus, as in the French defence, the c8-bishop is often a "problem child" for Black in the Dutch.

Similarly the original point of White's delaying c4 was to prevent Black from being able to develop his dark-squared bishop outside the pawn chain, thus leaving him a little cramped if he has to play his bishop to e7, which otherwise would be a useful square for the queen, guarding the sensitive e6 square (thus making the combination of ...b6 and ...d6 less problematic) and connecting the rooks.

(The same thinking applies equally to Bird's opening, with reversed colours.)

Most of the 20th century development of the Dutch defence is based on this "background knowledge".

The implication is that, subject to certain move order constraints, if White does not prevent him by playing g3 and Bg2, Black can play ...b6 with confidence. If Black can also play ...Bb4 and ...Bxc3, all the better, especially if White's pawns are doubled. This interpretation of the Dutch has much in common with the "Dutch variation" of the Nimzo-Indian, e.g. 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e3 b6 5 Bd3 Bb7 6 Nf3 Ne4 7 Qc2 f5. In fact one can regard the early steps with the Nimzo-Indian (roughly in the period 1910-1925) as an attempt to reach the "ideal Dutch" formation by other means, e.g.

[Event "URS-ch01"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "1920.??.??"]
[Round "13"]
[White "Rabinovich, Ilya Leontievich"]
[Black "Alekhine, Alexander"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E43"]
[PlyCount "78"]
[EventDate "1920.10.04"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "15"]
[EventCountry "URS"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.07.01"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b6 3. c4 e6 4. Nc3 Bb7 5. e3 Bb4 6. Qc2 Ne4 7. Bd3 f5 8. O-O
Bxc3 9. bxc3 O-O 10. Nd2 Qh4 11. f3 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 Nc6 13. e4 fxe4 14. Bxe4 Na5
15. Rae1 Bxe4 16. Rxe4 Qh5 17. Qa4 Nxc4 18. Re2 b5 19. Qb3 Qf5 20. Rfe1 Rab8
21. Bc1 a5 22. Re4 a4 23. Qd1 Rbe8 24. Qe2 c5 25. Be3 cxd4 26. Bxd4 e5 27. f4
d6 28. h3 Re6 29. fxe5 dxe5 30. Bc5 Rf7 31. Rb1 h6 32. Rxb5 Nd2 33. Rxa4 Qc2
34. Rb8+ Kh7 35. Kh1 Rf1+ 36. Bg1 Rxg1+ 37. Kxg1 Qc1+ 38. Kf2 Rf6+ 39. Ke3 Nb1+
0-1

Of course, chess is very rich and complex game, so the above considerations should not be interpreted in too dogmatic a fashion.


"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."


Wonderfully lucid explanation Paddy. Do wish all chess book writers were blessed with similar clarity of thought and expression.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch without fianchetto
Reply #7 - 08/23/09 at 10:42:00
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The main point of White's g3 against the Dutch was to prevent or discourage Black from playing ...b6 and ...Bb7 and thus in a way "punish" him for playing ...f5, which blocks the other diagonal of the bishop. Thus, as in the French defence, the c8-bishop is often a "problem child" for Black in the Dutch.

Similarly the original point of White's delaying c4 was to prevent Black from being able to develop his dark-squared bishop outside the pawn chain, thus leaving him a little cramped if he has to play his bishop to e7, which otherwise would be a useful square for the queen, guarding the sensitive e6 square (thus making the combination of ...b6 and ...d6 less problematic) and connecting the rooks.

(The same thinking applies equally to Bird's opening, with reversed colours.)

Most of the 20th century development of the Dutch defence is based on this "background knowledge".

The implication is that, subject to certain move order constraints, if White does not prevent him by playing g3 and Bg2, Black can play ...b6 with confidence. If Black can also play ...Bb4 and ...Bxc3, all the better, especially if White's pawns are doubled. This interpretation of the Dutch has much in common with the "Dutch variation" of the Nimzo-Indian, e.g. 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e3 b6 5 Bd3 Bb7 6 Nf3 Ne4 7 Qc2 f5. In fact one can regard the early steps with the Nimzo-Indian (roughly in the period 1910-1925) as an attempt to reach the "ideal Dutch" formation by other means, e.g.

[Event "URS-ch01"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "1920.??.??"]
[Round "13"]
[White "Rabinovich, Ilya Leontievich"]
[Black "Alekhine, Alexander"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E43"]
[PlyCount "78"]
[EventDate "1920.10.04"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "15"]
[EventCountry "URS"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.07.01"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b6 3. c4 e6 4. Nc3 Bb7 5. e3 Bb4 6. Qc2 Ne4 7. Bd3 f5 8. O-O
Bxc3 9. bxc3 O-O 10. Nd2 Qh4 11. f3 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 Nc6 13. e4 fxe4 14. Bxe4 Na5
15. Rae1 Bxe4 16. Rxe4 Qh5 17. Qa4 Nxc4 18. Re2 b5 19. Qb3 Qf5 20. Rfe1 Rab8
21. Bc1 a5 22. Re4 a4 23. Qd1 Rbe8 24. Qe2 c5 25. Be3 cxd4 26. Bxd4 e5 27. f4
d6 28. h3 Re6 29. fxe5 dxe5 30. Bc5 Rf7 31. Rb1 h6 32. Rxb5 Nd2 33. Rxa4 Qc2
34. Rb8+ Kh7 35. Kh1 Rf1+ 36. Bg1 Rxg1+ 37. Kxg1 Qc1+ 38. Kf2 Rf6+ 39. Ke3 Nb1+
0-1

Of course, chess is very rich and complex game, so the above considerations should not be interpreted in too dogmatic a fashion.


"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
« Last Edit: 08/23/09 at 11:53:59 by Paddy »  
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Re: Classical Dutch without fianchetto
Reply #6 - 08/22/09 at 19:11:16
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I dispute that 4...Be7 5.d5 leads to a White advantage, now matter how slight. Alas I don't have access to my notes at the moment as I am on holiday in The Netherlands (nice weather). In my opinion a game by Van den Bosch played in the 50's in Tel Aviv is critical; White played Colle style with 4.Nf3, 5.e3, 6.Bd3, 7.0-0, 8.Re1 and 9.e4.
I also object to ...b6 without ...Bb4. The pawn being on f5 it is asking for d4-d5. And what are you going to do with Nb8 ?
Even after 4...Bb4 I am not sure if the queenside fianchetto is always that strong. If Black wants to play ...e5 at a certain point Bc8 nicely protects the potential weakness on e6. At the other hand I have seen some nice attacking games based on ...Ne4 and ...Rf6. As I said, I am not sure.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch without fianchetto
Reply #5 - 08/18/09 at 19:54:46
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kylemeister wrote on 08/16/09 at 03:42:05:
A bit puzzling, since Black doesn't generally fianchetto his QB in the Classical.

In the event of 1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. Nf3, 4...Bb4 seems to be best.


I that specific position I'd play 4. ... Bb4 too.

As a general principle, though, I think ... b6 and ... Bb7 is often a good plan when White doesn't play g3 and Bg2.

I scored +6 =0 -0 with the Dutch last year - and I play it particularly because I find most players at my level don't play the mainlines with the Bish on g2.

Btw:-
Simon Williams' book on the dutch has a very good introduction which covers a few of the general principles of the opening.  I found it really helpful.  The book itself is a bit dated now of course (think it was published in 2003 or so) but it's worth getting hold of if you can.

If not just go to a chess book shop and thumb through the first few pages!
  

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Re: Classical Dutch without fianchetto
Reply #4 - 08/18/09 at 18:55:35
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Thanks for your comments.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch without fianchetto
Reply #3 - 08/16/09 at 16:48:02
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My impression is that 4...Bb4 should lead to equality, and that 4...Be7 and 4...b6 should lead to a slight advantage for White (e.g. 4...Be7 5. d5 or 4...b6 5. a3 Bb7 6. d5, the latter transposing to the "English Defense").  ...b6 is sometimes played after 4...Bb4.

Edit:  coincidentally, a few minutes after writing the above, I was scanning through some game files from recent/current events and came across this example, of the genre "Chess Master vs. Chess Amateur."


[Event "Abudhabi Chess Festival 2009 "]
[Site "Al Jazeera Club"]
[Date "2009.08.12"]
[Round "1.9"]
[White "Humaid Abdulla Ali"]
[Black "Amin Bassem"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A85"]
[WhiteElo "1635"]
[BlackElo "2551"]
[PlyCount "56"]
[EventDate "2009.08.12"]
[EventRounds "1"]

1. Nf3 f5 2. d4 Nf6 3. c4 e6 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bd2 O-O 6. a3 Bxc3 7. Bxc3 d6 8. g3
b6 9. Bg2 Bb7 10. O-O Ne4 11. Qc2 Nd7 12. Nd2 Nxd2 13. Bxd2 Bxg2 14. Kxg2 Qf6
15. e3 e5 16. Bc3 e4 17. f4 exf3+ 18. Rxf3 Qe6 19. Qe2 d5 20. Rd1 Nf6 21. Bb4
Rf7 22. cxd5 Nxd5 23. Bd2 Re8 24. Qa6 Qe4 25. Qc4 g5 26. Kf2 g4 27. Rf4 Nxf4
28. exf4 Qf3+ 0-1
  
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Re: Classical Dutch without fianchetto
Reply #2 - 08/16/09 at 16:24:34
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"A bit puzzling, since Black doesn't generally fianchetto his QB in the Classical."

Sorry, I meant to say BUT with a queenside fianchetto. In other words, is it ok to play usual early development but just take advantage of the opportunity to fianchetto myself, or is there a strong theoretical imperative to play Bb4 lines?
  
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Re: Classical Dutch without fianchetto
Reply #1 - 08/16/09 at 03:42:05
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A bit puzzling, since Black doesn't generally fianchetto his QB in the Classical.

In the event of 1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. Nf3, 4...Bb4 seems to be best.
  
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Classical Dutch without fianchetto
08/16/09 at 02:02:10
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I am just starting out with the Classical Dutch, so this question is as simple as it looks. If White plays an early c4 and doesn't fianchetto, do I have to play a Bb4 variation or can I just develop as per Classical with my own queenside fianchetto?
  
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