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Poll closed Question: Who will win Nanjing 2009?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Veselin Topalov    
  5 (16.7%)
Magnus Carlsen    
  23 (76.7%)
Dmitry Jakovenko    
  0 (0.0%)
Teimour Radjabov    
  1 (3.3%)
Peter Leko    
  1 (3.3%)
Wang Yue    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 30
« Created by: TN on: 09/27/09 at 22:19:57 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21) (Read 35276 times)
TN
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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #47 - 10/04/09 at 20:34:00
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gewgaw wrote on 10/04/09 at 16:11:59:
Psychologytest:

Can you recognize a pattern, if yes, how much points will carlsen achieve in Nanjing?

+ + = + + =


8.5/10. Grin
  

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gewgaw
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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #46 - 10/04/09 at 16:11:59
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Psychologytest:

Can you recognize a pattern, if yes, how much points will carlsen achieve in Nanjing?

+ + = + + =
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #45 - 10/04/09 at 13:30:03
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TN wrote on 10/04/09 at 11:49:09:
It is worth noting that Carlsen's two draws in this tournament have both been on the Black side of the Grunfeld, which incidentally was a problem area for Kasparov in his match against Kramnik.


Ok, this, perhaps more than the score is impressive:

We are all so caught up in this tournament that drawing with Black using the same opening against two of the best players in the world is implicitly a problem area for Carlsen.  Wow! Shocked
  
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Stigma
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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #44 - 10/04/09 at 12:35:21
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gewgaw wrote on 10/03/09 at 09:04:19:
chessmetrics rating has some obvious loose:

look at the page again:

http://db.chessmetrics.com/CM2/Summary.asp?Params=1840AASSSS43S00000000000011100...;

Fischer best tournementrating was 2887 (2nd best rating) in 1971.
His climax in the chessmetrics list was 2895 - this is impossible!


I'm not an expert on ChessMetrics ratings, but Sonas already explained this on the "Home" page:

"Question #2: How can a player have a peak rating higher than their best performance rating?  Isn't that impossible?   
Answer: No, it's not impossible. It would indeed be impossible with traditional performance ratings, but not with Chessmetrics performance ratings. A Chessmetrics performance rating indicates the overall rating we would assign to the player if we only knew about that one event, and nothing else. Because an individual event typically covers only a few games, the performance rating calculations for single events are fairly conservative; we don't want to award extremely high ratings based upon just a few games. 
[...]
Hopefully it makes sense that a high percentage score across many games would have a greater impact on your rating than if it were across just a few games. It's more evidence that you really are that strong. 
[...] 
Thus it is quite possible to have an overall peak rating that is larger than any of your individual performances, simply because several events, viewed as a whole, constitute more overall evidence that you really are that strong, compared to the evidence from just one event."
  

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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #43 - 10/04/09 at 11:49:09
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Round 6 Results:

Leko-Carlsen .5-.5
Jakovenko-Topalov 0-1
Radjabov-Wang Yue .5-.5

Standings:

Carlsen 5/6
Wang Yue, Topalov 3/6
Leko, Radjabov 2.5/6
Jakovenko 2/6

In Leko-Carlsen, White's 1.d4 paid dividends as after 21.b4 Black faces some difficulties, but with accurate defence following his exchange sacrifice, Carlsen liquidated the pawns on the queenside to hold the drawish R+B vs. N+B ending that resulted. It is worth noting that Carlsen's two draws in this tournament have both been on the Black side of the Grunfeld, which incidentally was a problem area for Kasparov in his match against Kramnik.
  

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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #42 - 10/03/09 at 22:08:18
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/03/09 at 16:43:02:

Bobby Fischer's win in the US Championship, 1963, Botvinnik in 1948 victory, Keres in AVRO, Karpov in Linares, and Kasparov (take your pick) are all great victories.  Fischer's perfect score is unfathomable for a major national championship.


Well 11/11 against the likes of Mednis & Addison is great, but any top Soviet would have scored heavily there.
  
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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #41 - 10/03/09 at 18:54:16
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Kasparov claims that he still has the best opening Database in the world. Does he still keep up with current theory? And is it best because all of his own analysis?
  
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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #40 - 10/03/09 at 16:43:02
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Stigma, 

Thanks for the links! Chessmetrics is really useful and cool, but I hope it doesn't replace thought in determining the greatest results and players of all time.

Before anyone goes proclaiming this as the greatest performance of all time, let's wait til the tnmt's over.

Topalov started 6.5/7 in San Luis, 2005 only to draw all his games in the second half of the tournament.  For me, that ranks as the greatest tournament performance this century.

Bobby Fischer's win in the US Championship, 1963, Botvinnik in 1948 victory, Keres in AVRO, Karpov in Linares, and Kasparov (take your pick) are all great victories.  Fischer's perfect score is unfathomable for a major national championship.  You can't rate perfection.  His games were stellar.  Botvinnik's 70% score in a world championship is also amazing. 

I think it was Twain who said that fiction is limited by the possible. Fact has no such constraints. It is imaginable that Carlsen will continue his amazing run, but let's hold off until he has done it. 
  
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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #39 - 10/03/09 at 09:04:19
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Stigma wrote on 10/02/09 at 12:07:59:
This now looks set to become one of the best tournament performances ever on top level!

Does anybody know/have an opinion on who currently holds that record?

Linares 1994 comes to mind, and was on top of the list at www.chessmetrics.com (see "Summary"). According to Sonas, the 10 best tournament performances (excluding matches) up to 2004 were:

#1     Anatoly Karpov        2899 performance: 11/13 (85%) vs 2729    Linares, 1994 
#4     Garry Kasparov        2881 performance: 12/14 (86%) vs 2692    Tilburg, 1989 
#5     Emanuel Lasker       2878 performance: 18/22 (82%) vs 2667    London, 1899 
#6     Garry Kasparov        2877 performance: 10.5/14 (75%) vs 2758    Linares, 1999 
#11     Mikhail Tal             2869 performance: 20/28 (71%) vs 2716    Bled/Zagreb/Belgrade (Candidates), 1959 
#12     Alexander Alekhine 2865 performance: 13/14 (93%) vs 2626    San Remo, 1930 
#13     Garry Kasparov      2863 performance: 10/13 (77%) vs 2737    Linares, 1993 
#15     Alexander Alekhine 2859 performance: 19.5/24 (81%) vs 2644    Bled, 1931 
#16     Garry Kasparov      2856 performance: 11.5/15 (77%) vs 2715    Belfort (World Cup), 1988 
#17     Garry Kasparov      2855 performance: 10/13 (77%) vs 2728    Linares, 1992

(NB: performances given in "Chessmetrics rating", not FIDE Elo)


I don't know if anyone has surpassed Karpov in the last few years?

chessmetrics rating has some obvious loose:

look at the page again:

http://db.chessmetrics.com/CM2/Summary.asp?Params=1840AASSSS43S00000000000011100...;

Fischer best tournementrating was 2887 (2nd best rating) in 1971.
His climax in the chessmetrics list was 2895 - this is impossible!
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #38 - 10/03/09 at 08:48:53
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[quote author=gewgaw]

I assume they all fear garri´s power (of the dark side  ;)), this doubles Magnus´ strength[/quote]

Yes that's probably part of it - he just plays something they can somehow associate with Garri and suddenly his opponents feel like they're playing the chess variant "Death Square" :))

Anyhoo, sponsorwise Carlsen would most likely be the best choice for Number One and at the moment we can follow that fight on a daily basis: [url]http://chess.liverating.org/[/url] :)


Though if he does take over, then the Anand-Topalov match would lose some of it's appeal, I guess...
  
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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #37 - 10/03/09 at 00:18:02
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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #36 - 10/02/09 at 21:04:05
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Stigma wrote on 10/02/09 at 17:51:26:

Kotov's star moment was the Saltsjöbaden 1952 Interzonal where he finished with 16,5/20, 3 points clear of a field that included Taimanov, Petrosian, Ståhlberg, Averbakh, Szabo, Geller and Gligoric.

An impressive result indeed, but the fact that Kotov only beat Szabo and drew the others is a small spoiler.
  

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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #35 - 10/02/09 at 17:51:26
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/02/09 at 14:07:35:
I forget which Candidates tournament it was, but didn't Kotov have an absolutely amazing performance in the mid 1950s-early 60s?

A single tournament isn't enough to get too excited about, but Carlsen is really showing us something with the way he is winning these games.  He seems to be at a different level than these 2700+ patzers.  Shocked


Many people were excited enough about Linares 1994 or San Luis 2005. But sure, Carlsen has some way to go before he is the clear world no. 1, if that's what you need to get excited  Wink

Kotov's star moment was the Saltsjöbaden 1952 Interzonal where he finished with 16,5/20, 3 points clear of a field that included Taimanov, Petrosian, Ståhlberg, Averbakh, Szabo, Geller and Gligoric. 

ChessMetrics rates this as the #44 individual performance before 2005 (including matches and tournaments) with a TPR of 2832. This being "merely" an interzonal, most of the absolute top players at the time were absent (Botvinnik, Smyslov, Bronstein, Keres, Reshevsky etc.). So a very impressive result, but not really a top tournament.
  

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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #34 - 10/02/09 at 15:43:56
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rdecredico wrote on 10/02/09 at 14:11:16:

Polgar's "Sack of Rome" is perhaps more impressive.


I remember that - Sofia wasnt it? 14 years old and rated less than 2300 she won the tournament with a 2900 performance.
  
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Re: Nanjing 2009 (Cat. 21)
Reply #33 - 10/02/09 at 14:44:52
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/02/09 at 14:07:35:
I forget which Candidates tournament it was, but didn't Kotov have an absolutely amazing performance in the mid 1950s-early 60s?

A single tournament isn't enough to get too excited about, but Carlsen is really showing us something with the way he is winning these games.  He seems to be at a different level than these 2700+ patzers.  Shocked


I assume they all fear garri´s power (of the dark side  Wink), this doubles Magnus´ strength
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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