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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Openings for adult class players (Read 182542 times)
Carld
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #258 - 12/20/10 at 21:22:03
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I have Chess Advantage coming through an inter-library loan. I won't have enough time to really dig into it, but I'll know if it's something I want to track down or not. I just got Spanish Exchange by Andrew Kinsman in the mail. It looks like interesting stuff.

Edit: Also, thanks for the Davies recommendation. I'll look into that one too. I'm still considering forgoing e4 for the Tromp, but I may just work on both.
  
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Zatara
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #257 - 12/20/10 at 06:11:09
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Hi Carld,
Good rep.  I would get Larry Kaufman's book The advantage in BLack and WHite and play what he recommends as white.  Most of the lines you choose are what Kaufman choose.  ALso maybe get Davies book on 1,e4 e5 and play what he recommends except for his Ruy Recommendation.  He recommends the 2 knights as Markovic on the forum also recommends!!   
Cheers,
Zatara
  
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Carld
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #256 - 12/19/10 at 17:37:18
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I just got The Road to Chess Improvement in the mail. It looks interesting but dense with variations and analysis. I'll probably skim through the games and read the prose before I decide if it's a good book for me to spend a lot of time on. It might be over my head right now.

I'm still vacillating on exactly what openings to play. I may just chuck the whole mess of opening study and play g3, Bg2, c4 with White and g6, Bg7, c5 with Black. I noticed Luke McShane playing g3, Bg2, c4 (varying move orders) at the London Classic. I'm also still considering the Tromp and something else against 1... d5.

But, I'm also still thinking of playing e4 with White as follows.

1. Ruy Lopez Exchange as White
2. Panov-Botvinnik against the Caro-Kann
3. Monte Carlo Exchange against the French (1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4)
4. 150 attack vs. Pirc/Modern
5. Bb5 lines against most Sicilians, not sure on e6 variations yet. The Alapin would probably be an simpler choice. I played it a few times, but never really looked into it that much.
6. No idea yet on other Black defenses.

Black:
1. Tarrasch against d4
2. e5 against e4, though not sure what exactly after that, possibly the Moller (what we used to call the Archangel) with the Schliemann thrown in there once in a while. No idea what against the various non-Lopez openings for White.

That's a fairly large amount of study just to come to a good basic understanding of that many openings, and that's for a pretty minimal repertoire. 

And, it's still just a thought experiment at this point. Right now I'm cataloging my chess materials, and hunting down things I know I have somewhere. I also decided it's time to transfer my old VHS chess tapes to DVD before they deteriorate completely, fun fun.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #255 - 12/17/10 at 17:03:26
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Certainly why I do it - or at least read books etc about it. Its just interesting. 

Another good example of drifting out of theory reasonably fast from yesterday: 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 Be3 e6 5 Nd2 Nd7 6 Be2 c5 7 Ngf3 cd 8 Nxd4 Bg6

Curiously I don't think I can find this specific position in my books or my (non exhaustive) databases. Might have ended back up in theory a few moves after c4/Ne7 etc, not sure. Shrug Smiley Rather doubt either of us knew it.
  
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MNb
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #254 - 12/17/10 at 09:08:46
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9. Because it's fun. Just like maths is fun.
Motivation enough for me.
  

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ReneDescartes
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #253 - 12/17/10 at 00:58:12
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ErictheRed is unquestionably right in that, up until the point at which you start losing games because you are getting entangled in your opponents' theoretical lines, or winning games because your opponents are getting entangled in yours, deep concrete opening study is an extremely inefficient way to increase your success rate.

The question is, why do people who do not improve much by studying openings love to do it so much?  There is of course an erroneous judgment involved, but I think there's more to it than that. It's highly seductive. Some different possible motivations, apart from the desire to make an unanswered threat:

1. To feel (falsely) as if you are in control of the chaos of chess; to feel you have anticipated every contingency
2.  To design as perfect (consistent, comprehensive, whatever) a repertoire as possible. The repertoire as creative production. 
3.  To express your perceived identity as a player, as if selecting a wardrobe. "I am an attacking (classical, hypermodern, correct, offbeat, counterattacking, solid, whatever) player."
4. To imitate your heroes.
5. To know what is going on in games you observe or kibitz.
6. To keep up with fashion or current events.
7. To communicate with your friends in opening forums.
8. To feel as if you’re thinking when you’re not thinking. Because of the constant uncertainty it generates, real thinking provokes a degree of anxiety; reading an opening book often does more or less the opposite.

I am in no way claiming to be exempt from these pleasures, of course.  I note in passing that this is something adults are more prone to than children.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #252 - 12/16/10 at 19:59:36
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/16/10 at 17:51:36:

My other point is that choosing to study and play main lines doesn't necessarily mean you have to play the Yugoslav Attack, the Winawer Poisoned Pawn, the Mar Del Plata, etc.  You can choose to play slightly tamer options like the Kan, 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6, the Saemisch KID, the Meran instead of 5.Bg5 against the Semi Slav, etc.  You can start by playing less sharp lines and gradually sharpen them as you progress, also.  You don't need to resort to the London, Colle, etc. out of fear.  You can play main lines without memorizing lots of theory, you just need to choose them wisely.

Yeah, that was my point too.
But yes, even if you've prepared lots of sharp stuff the opponent has to cooperate to get it on the board. A friend of mine plays the King's Indian and complains that everyone tries to "surprise" him by avoiding the Classical, to the extent that he feels not very well-prepared for the Classical since he faces it so rarely! The irony...
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #251 - 12/16/10 at 18:01:01
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@Carld

You could take a look at the new book "Sicilian Attacks" (also a sort of pawn-structure book), which looks as though it would provide a nice grounding in the English Attack (which involves moves like Be3, f3, Qd2, 0-0-0, g4 etc.).  I noticed that it has some early classic games from the '70s, for example.  There's a .pdf sample at the New in Chess site.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #250 - 12/16/10 at 17:51:36
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Stigma wrote on 12/16/10 at 15:46:11:



But I still think my point about different kinds of main lines holds. In the games you posted you're playing the Kan/Taimanov and the Dutch, and a relatively positional 1.d4 repertoire as White. The Semi-Slav might be an exception, but at least it was with e3 and not Bg5. These are not lines that most opponents are likely to have prepared very deeply for; it's also fairly solid stuff where one inaccurate move won't lose the game. If you were playing lines like the Dragon Yugoslav Attack, the Winawer Poisoned Pawn, the King's Indian Mar del Plata or the Botvinnik Semi-Slav with either colour, the player who knew theory better or even had some improvements ready would have a huge practical advantage.


Well I've played games that are sharper and follow theory longer, but this was just an arbitrary sampling of the last 12 games I played against 2200+ players.  I did this because I didn't want to deliberately choose games with more or less theory.  By the way, there are 9 different players represented in those games (10 including me).

I agree with you to some extent, but I was prepared to play sharper lines in those games.  First off, the Taimanov has a ton of theory, don't be fooled.  Perhaps most of those lines aren't as sharp as the Yugoslav Attack against the Dragon, but some probably are (or are very close).  I was also prepared to play sharper lines in the Semi-Slav, but they didn't come up in these.  Ditto the Dutch--I wasn't deliberately trying to avoid sharp lines, it's just what happened in these games.  My point is that it happens in LOTS of games, much more than people seem to think.

My other point is that choosing to study and play main lines doesn't necessarily mean you have to play the Yugoslav Attack, the Winawer Poisoned Pawn, the Mar Del Plata, etc.  You can choose to play slightly tamer options like the Kan, 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6, the Saemisch KID, the Meran instead of 5.Bg5 against the Semi Slav, etc.  You can start by playing less sharp lines and gradually sharpen them as you progress, also.  You don't need to resort to the London, Colle, etc. out of fear.  You can play main lines without memorizing lots of theory, you just need to choose them wisely.
  
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Carld
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #249 - 12/16/10 at 17:51:03
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MartinC wrote on 12/16/10 at 17:29:21:
No, no - I can assure you that the same thing happens a lot even when playing sharp e4 main lines Smiley

If people aren't facing something on a regular basis then they won't have something prepared in detail against it. Well probably not that they can remember at least. How could they?

And - in the UK at least! - it often seems like stuff like the main line open Sicillian is the surprise option. Obviously at higher levels this is prone to change slightly.

Still some main lines are easier to play without knowledge than others. The English attack for white say - you've got both a naturally solid position and an exceedingly easy/effective plan if black does 'nothing'.


Is there a good online reference to the English Attack? I have to admit that when I came back to chess seriously references to it mystified me, I had no idea what they were talking about. I don't remember anyone talking about the English Attack back then.

I gather it's something like White castles Queenside and throws his g and h pawns across the board?
  
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MartinC
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #248 - 12/16/10 at 17:29:21
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No, no - I can assure you that the same thing happens a lot even when playing sharp e4 main lines Smiley

If people aren't facing something on a regular basis then they won't have something prepared in detail against it. Well probably not that they can remember at least. How could they?

And - in the UK at least! - it often seems like stuff like the main line open Sicillian is the surprise option. Obviously at higher levels this is prone to change slightly.

Still some main lines are easier to play without knowledge than others. The English attack for white say - you've got both a naturally solid position and an exceedingly easy/effective plan if black does 'nothing'.
  
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Carld
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #247 - 12/16/10 at 16:58:38
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Markovich wrote on 12/16/10 at 16:10:32:
Carld, you are definitely spending too much time on openings.  I take your point about the appropriateness of studying theory, but this doesn't apply at your level.

Stop switching openings. 


Well yes, that's pretty much exactly why I'm here, to get this stuff settled and at least push it to the side for now. Plus, remember, I've been playing for 40 years that leaves lots of room for changing my mind.



Markovich wrote on 12/16/10 at 16:10:32:

If you play a good 1...e5 in reply to 1.e4, Two Knights Defense, Open Defense and so forth, and play nothing but Tarrasch against the closed, that will be a very solid basis for chess improvement -- if improvement is your primary goal, that is.

Or for that matter, play whatever you like, but pick one reasonably good system and stick with it.  

You mentioned ending theory.  Actually at your level, studying up on the theoretical endings is a whole lot more important than studying opening theory.  Chess games tend toward endings; they tend away from openings.  Further ending theory is pretty well timeless, while opening theory is notoriously mutable.


Agreed, and that's a point I more or less made a few posts ago. I want to get off this opening treadmill and play seriously.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #246 - 12/16/10 at 16:10:32
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Carld, you are definitely spending too much time on openings.  I take your point about the appropriateness of studying theory, but this doesn't apply at your level.

Stop switching openings.  If you play a good 1...e5 in reply to 1.e4, Two Knights Defense, Open Defense and so forth, and play nothing but Tarrasch against the closed, that will be a very solid basis for chess improvement -- if improvement is your primary goal, that is.

Or for that matter, play whatever you like, but pick one reasonably good system and stick with it.  

You mentioned ending theory.  Actually at your level, studying up on the theoretical endings is a whole lot more important than studying opening theory.  Chess games tend toward endings; they tend away from openings.  Further ending theory is pretty well timeless, while opening theory is notoriously mutable.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #245 - 12/16/10 at 15:46:11
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/16/10 at 06:51:54:
Alright, as promised, here are the openings from my last 12 opponents rated 2200+.  They haven't been changed in any way, and I chose the last 12 games so as not to pick and choose the less theoretical games:

[...]

This took a long time to post; I hope it helps someone and you whiners actually start playing main lines and stop being afraid of theory!


Thanks for taking the time. My experience is similar; very often I find my opponents or myself out of book before move 15 or even move 10 (I'm rated a bit below 2200). Actually I would prefer to see a bit more theory played since that could help combat my frequent time troubles! I also play many lines that I originally chose for "surprise value", which probably just compunds this problem.

But I still think my point about different kinds of main lines holds. In the games you posted you're playing the Kan/Taimanov and the Dutch, and a relatively positional 1.d4 repertoire as White. The Semi-Slav might be an exception, but at least it was with e3 and not Bg5. These are not lines that most opponents are likely to have prepared very deeply for; it's also fairly solid stuff where one inaccurate move won't lose the game. If you were playing lines like the Dragon Yugoslav Attack, the Winawer Poisoned Pawn, the King's Indian Mar del Plata or the Botvinnik Semi-Slav with either colour, the player who knew theory better or even had some improvements ready would have a huge practical advantage.

So I agree the best way to study openings is first understand the structures and then try them out, worry about the theory later, with the caveat that there are some notoriously sharp openings where this just won't work. But it's entirely possible to have a serious main line repertoire that avoids those theoretical monsters if one lacks the time or motivation to study reams of theory.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #244 - 12/16/10 at 11:03:24
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Zatara wrote on 12/16/10 at 01:43:15:
Carld: yeah definatly check out TN repertoire for white!!!  He, it seeems has put in a lot of work into it and has always been very helpful!!  IF you like the RUy then track down Mastering the Ruy Lopez by king and poinzetto.  Ok so some of the lines are crap.  Like the colle and Barry.  But you can play 1.d4 Nf3 move order to cut down on theory.  I am thinking of keeping the 150 attack, Play the petrosian vs 1D3239373C21355306, play c4, Nf3 Nc3 Bf4 system vs QG and g4 systems vs slav, and Russian system vs Grunfeld and Krasenkov vs KID.    the d4 Nf3 cuts out Benonis Benkos ect pretty well.  This would be my d4 repertoire and play TN's 1.e4 repertoire as white.  

TN: Maybe once TN does the Repertoires for black , for chesspublishing.com he may send me a copy!!!???
just some ides,
Zatara


Not all things in life are free.  Grin
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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