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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Openings for adult class players (Read 182739 times)
Stigma
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #138 - 10/29/09 at 17:49:19
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I believe Prof. Elo's original intention was an average rating of 1500. But this is corrupted by different details of the system in different countries. For example, USCF ratings go all the way down to 0 (I believe), while Denmark uses an absolute floor (minimum rating) as high as 1000, and Norway has 400. FIDE has lowered its floor step by step from 2200 to the current 1200. 

Obviously these differences skew the statistical distribution and make comparison between countries difficult, especially below 2000.
  

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Jupp53
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #137 - 10/29/09 at 17:31:43
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Beg your pardon - writing error in a foreign language. After 1600 about average 1800 should mean one standard deviation above average. Thanks for giving the hint. I will correct now.
The average player of the Elo-rating system was around 1500 to 1600 when I did study rating systems. It is somewhat difficult to compare different countries. But I think numbers around 1500 are a good guess about average performance of all chess players in tournaments. For Germany this holds. Today I don't know anything about other countries.
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #136 - 10/29/09 at 16:43:17
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I don't know in what population 1800 is "about average"; I think the US average of non-"scholastic" players is about 1400, and 1800 is at about the 85th percentile.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #135 - 10/29/09 at 15:42:32
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Having read the whole topic now I want to throw in two corrections first:

1. Em. Lasker spoke about 1.000 hours of training as an assumption. And it is stunning, how correct his estimation fits to the scientific psychological research. (Edit: I have to go into my old books, which will need some time, as the source for the #1000 has to be found. #100 is wrong in any case and the #200 has been sourced and added with more content by St. Bücker. Thanks for this. - Personal remark: I hope I didn't mix up great Lasker in my memory with some remarks of Berliner and H.A.SIMON or one of his followers in the psychological research branch in my memory. Now I'm nearly 60yo and still didn't learn how to refer to a basic citation.  Embarrassed Anyway, this has to do with the question what is necessary to become a better player. Time is one of the variables and it hides the content to learn in this time.)

2. The whole topic is about openings for adult players, even if sandman neclected this in one post. ( Wink) Why do I think so?

According to my scientific education as a psychologist (with a master thesis about playing strength and two psychological learning theories btw) I rely on facts.

So what is the first step in answering a human beings question about behavior modification (aka learning, attitude changes, etc.)? You have to look at the basics of the field and the behavior of the human being.

The question here is: Which opening repertoire is good for me for becoming a better player?

Fact is: Chess has - compared with a lot of other fields - a good measure of playing strength by the Elo rating. It is much better than teacher judgements b.e. (Forgive me this truth if you're a teacher.)

Fact is: The step from 1200 to 1400 (200 is a standard deviation, so this is intentional chosen) is smaller in "knowledge units" and than 1400 to 1600 than 1600 to 1800.

Fact is: The average player is about 1600. (Edit: Stigma remerbers 1500 as intended average by Elo. So do I. The empirical data showed discrepancies to that when I went into them 30 years ago which was reflected by some then existing proposals of data monitoring by Elo to avoid inflation and deflation. Anyway ratings are a tool and misunderstood if used as a goal in this content.) 1800 is "above average" or "high average" depending on the criteria used. 2000 is at least statistical no mediocre player. (Maybe someone has another attitude about it. This is not talking about attitudes. This is talking about the normal distribution of chess skill.)

Fact is: Adults do learn completely new material slower than children. But adults knowing a field often learn faster. How comes? They can use knowledge for adding more knowledge. A chess example: Show me a player with elo 2200 and he is able to remember the game played two hours ago in a tournament. Show me a player with 1000 an he's not able to do so. This is age independent.

Fact is: If you blunder more than your opponent you will lose independent of the opening repertory.

Fact is: Chess is more than tactics, much more. (That's the main reason why experienced trainers are better than no trainer and bad trainers are worse than no trainer. - No scientific proof for that, but ...)

So the first serious answer to an adult willing to learn more about better chess by an opening reperory is frustrating, because it's a question: Show me your games and your reasoning while playing and I can give you some good advice after doing so. What are you're strengths, what are your weaknesses? (And to be honest: It's not at all honey for an ambitious human being to be asked about his weak points.)

The field of openings is more complex than the topic here let's asume. B.e. As a youngster I started playing 1.e4 with the goal to avoid complications or openings with an attack against my king. The goal was creating an open line, exchanging rooks and the queen and going as fast as possible to an equal or slightly worse endgame. It was very successful. But it hindered me getting better than 1900. 

This means: Playing open games is a shortcut advice (even if I think it is true in essence). The advice has to be more personal. The same holds for: Play whatever you have fun with. This holds if things should stay as they are.

I offer an "experiment" here:

Sandman (or someone else) annotates his last tournament games each two with black and white. He describes why using this opening and why using this move.
Two experienced trainers and two equally strong players without training experience look at the annotated games and offer their advice about:
- What to train which way?
- Which openings to play?

Someone serves as 'postbox'. I will send my assumptions about the results of the four advisors to the postbox and all will be published for further discussion here. (A lot of material: Four annotated games - Four comments - One prediction about the results.)

Who is in?
« Last Edit: 10/30/09 at 09:09:55 by Jupp53 »  

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nyoke
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #134 - 10/29/09 at 14:55:47
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I would think that the desire to improve at chess would presuppose the requisite drive.


The drive okay, but it's time that is lacking for a working parent.
  
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chk
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #133 - 10/29/09 at 13:32:50
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I've read the 1st one and can highly recommend it as it is strong in teaching you how to recognise or create the necessary conditions for some tactics (imo 10/10).
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #132 - 10/29/09 at 09:56:58
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Jesse Gersenson wrote on 10/28/09 at 15:31:41:
Sandman, the two books were:

Weteschnik - Understanding chess tactics
Yusupov - Build up your chess


Quite nice book choices.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #131 - 10/28/09 at 20:45:25
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nyoke wrote on 10/28/09 at 19:24:55:
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and they sound like recipes for chess mediocrity.


I'll admit you have a point there if you can prove to me that it is possible for someone starting to play in his late twenties or in his thirties can reach a higher level than that.





Well no one will ever be more than mediocre if that is not his ambition.  I would think that the desire to improve at chess would presuppose the requisite drive.  If it doesn't, then it rings a bit false, doesn't it?

The very worst teaching is that which has low expectations for the student.

@Stigma: Your Elo is the same as mine, so I can hardly tell you what you should do with any authority.  Nevertheless I maintain what I said.
« Last Edit: 10/29/09 at 01:24:07 by Markovich »  

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Sandman
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #130 - 10/28/09 at 19:52:31
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Thanks for your comments everyone.
I certainly don't want to be mediocre and would like to climb to expert at least. This is why I started the thread and specifically asked if adults should stick with what they are used to and comfortable with playing or change their openings and if so, then what should they play.

As TonyRo mentions, I am an adult with family and work obligations as well as my daughter's soccer, tennis and gymnastics practices, games and events to enjoy. However, if changing my rep would help me get to expert then I would do so and suffer the defeats and rating loss along the way in hopes that it would pay off.
  

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That's how far the world is from where I am.
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Stigma
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #129 - 10/28/09 at 19:40:31
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@ Markovich

I did play 1.e4 e5 as a young beginner, and had some rough idea how to play the Evans Gambit (W), the 2 Knights with 4.Ng5 (both sides) and the Ruy Lopez Arkhangelsk (B). But real progress only started when I took up other, semi-open defences. Could well be a coincidence, but I stuck with what seemed to work. Now as an adult around 2200 I still score well with the Sicilian, the French and the Pirc. So after trying 1...e5 again briefly I decided I could wait, I simply didn't need another defence to 1.e4 at this point, particularly one that seemed to suit my style badly.

In the defences I play there is scope for first outplaying the opponent positionally and only then opening up the position advantageously. So I do get open positions quite often, but ideally they are already good for me by the time they open up! That's what I meant by the tactics appearing to be more evenly distributed. This "game plan" of first winning the positional battle, then opening up has become my specialty when playing Black, to the extent that 1...e5 takes away one of my main strengths.

Having said all that I must admit that I do miscalculate more often than I would like in open positions. The solution I'm trying now is simply strenous calculation training and (re)reading the classical books on attacking play. I'm thinking it should be possible to get a title with the openings I already play, and if I manage that I will consider again if switching back to 1...e5 is necessary to develop further.

P.S. I always recommend 1...e5 to improving children, and have had to learn some theory in the most popular "scholastic" lines for that purpose. So I agree with you in principle that 1...e5 is good for a player's development. 

Edit: You could even say that if my young self had Markovich as a trainer (I never really had one), I would have gotten more experience with open games and probably progressed faster! But that's history; all I can do now is make the best of the current situation. It is thought-provoking though that as a strong IM, Nigel Davies was advised by GM Psakhis that he needed experience with 1.e4 e5 to reach his goal of getting the GM title. And it worked! Maybe you're never too strong to return to the basics.
« Last Edit: 10/28/09 at 21:19:24 by Stigma »  

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nyoke
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #128 - 10/28/09 at 19:24:55
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Quote:
and they sound like recipes for chess mediocrity.


I'll admit you have a point there if you can prove to me that it is possible for someone starting to play in his late twenties or in his thirties can reach a higher level than that.



  
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Markovich
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #127 - 10/28/09 at 17:52:22
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Stigma wrote on 10/28/09 at 15:29:42:



My own experience when I tried to switch to 1.e4 e5 as black was very negative. I always try out a new opening in blitz before I study much concrete theory, to get a feel for the positions, but that was just not possible with 1...e5. I lost time and again to the Scotch Gambit, the Vienna Game, the King's Gambit etc., got frustrated, and gave up the whole project. Sure there were tactics, but it felt like they were all for my opponent! In my usual Sicilians and Frenches there are tactics too, but they are more evenly distributed.


If this was happening only in very theoretical positions, it's likely that your oppoents were better prepared than you -- not surprising given your lack of prior study.  Since many of these lines are theoretical, naturally you'll have trouble if you don't prepare properly and encounter sophisticated opponents.  

But if it was happening in all sorts of positions, even those not highly theoretical, this idicates a serious deficiency in your game that will scarcely be remedied by playing the French all the time.

If chess were boxing, then open positions would be toe-to-toe slugging and less open positions would be dodging, maneuvering and jabbing.  You have to be able to swing hard in open positions, always creating threats to unbalance and out-tempo your opponent.  Tempo is the watchword.  Go toe to toe and swing as hard as John L. Sullivan.  Either you were having trouble doing this, or you were falling behind in development and/or central control from the outset, which naturally would produce situations where only your opponent could reasonably look for tactics.  Otherwise I could not imagine how the color of the pieces could possibly affect the distribution of tactical opportunities after 1...e5.

I imagine it's possible to improve without playing open positions, but I don't think it's possible to be a good player without being able to play open positions well.  That isn't necessarily the same thing as being able to play specific positions that arise from 1...e5 well, but it's rather close.  So I think that absolutely the worst reason for a developing player to give up on 1...e5 is that he tried it some, without much theoretical preparation, and didn't have success with it.

P.S. Since tactics almost invariably flow from superior activity, it seems quite strange to me that anyone would suggest that the French or the Sicilian would produce a better allocation of tactical opportunity to Black than 1...e5 would, assuming reasonably competent play by one's opponent.

P.P.S.  I read some of the posts here, not necessarily the one to which I responded, and they sound like recipes for chess mediocrity.
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #126 - 10/28/09 at 15:41:27
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Sandman wrote on 10/28/09 at 14:34:26:
Anyway, my question is should I, or other adult club players, play open games such as King's gambit and scotch or should I continue to play what I'm playing and feel comfortable with? I would describe myself as a slow positional player that likes to tie the game up and outplay my opponents I would say the endgame is my strength. This is the only way I've ever played and if this is hampering my development then I'd change to what will help me improve. If I should change to open games what would be the best choices to help me improve? I've thought about this some and if I go this route I'm thinking about the King's Bishop's gambit, exchange french and caro-kann (I'm not sure against the sicilian), and the tarrasch and Schliemann although I'm open to suggestions. Would these be good choices? I'm currently working thru "Weteschnik - Understanding Chess Tactics" to improve my tactics which I would say is my major weakness.

I wouldnt change my repertoire if I were you. Firstly it will take a lot of effort to switch your openings and the ones you play now arent bad ones. However if you occasionaly try out 1..e5 I dont see any problem with it. Secondly I think you are already on the right track with regards to improving by training on tactics, which is more important than the choice of opening. Thirdly it is also possible to vary within your openings. Eg the lines used in Scharndorf's book are very tactical (Botwinnik semi-slav and main line slav) and there are various other options in the QG which are very tactical and can quickly open up the game. Just ask Mnb, I think he plays a lot of those lines.
  

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Jesse Gersenson
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #125 - 10/28/09 at 15:31:41
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Sandman, the two books were:

Weteschnik - Understanding chess tactics
Yusupov - Build up your chess
  
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Stigma
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #124 - 10/28/09 at 15:29:42
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As I said earlier, simply switching to attacking 1.e4 and 1.e4 e5 openings can be bad for results and motivation. I think a more pleasant way to go about it is first work on tactics and attacking play, and only then consider switching.

Changing an entire repertoire is time-consuming. It may be a better idea to introduce some aggressive lines one at a time, as alternatives to the ones you currently play. For example, a normally positional 1.d4 player could introduce the 4 Pawns King's Indian, the Sämisch Nimzo-Indian and the 5.Bg5 Semi-Slav one at a time while keeping the rest of the repertoire. A Black Stonewall Dutch player can start alternating with the Leningrad, a French Classical or Rubinstein player can experiment with the Winawer Poisioned Pawn... and so on.

My own experience when I tried to switch to 1.e4 e5 as black was very negative. I always try out a new opening in blitz before I study much concrete theory, to get a feel for the positions, but that was just not possible with 1...e5. I lost time and again to the Scotch Gambit, the Vienna Game, the King's Gambit etc., got frustrated, and gave up the whole project. Sure there were tactics, but it felt like they were all for my opponent! In my usual Sicilians and Frenches there are tactics too, but they are more evenly distributed. Smiley
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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