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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Openings for adult class players (Read 182637 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #153 - 10/31/09 at 16:05:53
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I don't think that the number of chess players, keeping the definition constant, has increased by a factor of 2800 since Lasker's time.

I also don't think that a 1300 player meets the standard of not needing to take odds from someone like Lasker, vague though that standard may be.
  
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Jesse Gersenson
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #152 - 10/31/09 at 15:31:35
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Markovich wrote on 10/30/09 at 14:56:50:
OK my mistake, I thought it was all study.  But do you think that merely 120 hours of playing chess would elevate anyone to the top one-quarter of one percent?  (That's 1 in 250, right?)


There are 700,000,000 chess players in the world. The top 0.25% means being in the top 1,750,000. 


200 hours of studying playing and studying withTHE WORLD CHAMPION would surely morph a person from beginner to elo 1301. On fide, a rating of 1301 claims a world rank of 110,224. Let's say only one in 20 players with that playing strength have an actual FIDE rating, that leaves us around an adjusted world rank of top 2 million. 
 
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #151 - 10/30/09 at 17:38:16
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Perhaps playing Kasparov helped Karpov to go from 2720 to 2780 or whatever, but I don't know what that says about the case of our hypothetical beginner.

I don't think an hour a week for four years (as in the weekly club training example) sounds likely to get one very far.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #150 - 10/30/09 at 17:16:59
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Markovich wrote on 10/30/09 at 14:56:50:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/30/09 at 13:38:44:
Markovich wrote on 10/30/09 at 12:46:25:
I think he was wrong, because I don't think that the feel for chess positions that is necessary for good play comes from study, but from much playing experience.  There is no substitute for experience in chess, and I think it's quite strange that Lasker thought there was.

I don't understand. Of the 200 hours necessary to bring someone from patzer to player, Lasker had reserved 120 hours to playing games! After 80 hours studying some basics, from that point Lasker only recommended playing games, nothing else. Quite the opposite to "studying vs playing". Lasker clearly preferred the latter.


OK my mistake, I thought it was all study.  But do you think that merely 120 hours of playing chess would elevate anyone to the top one-quarter of one percent?  (That's 1 in 250, right?)

Definately. If you play and analyse for 120 hours with an IM I think you will easily go over 1600 and prolly get around 2000. If it were 120 hours with and against Lasker I imagine you would go even higher. Just check Kasparov: Playing against Karpov for 120 or so games certainly made him better.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #149 - 10/30/09 at 15:55:10
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If a child only visits weekly training hours in a club, 200 hours would translate to four years. Wouldn't that be something? Often the trainer is not a master. In the 1960ies in Nordwalde for a while the best players (~2250-2300) trained the children. But while that training did have an influence, the three Bücker brothers played too much at home, which spoiled the experiment.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #148 - 10/30/09 at 15:21:14
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Markovich wrote on 10/30/09 at 14:56:50:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/30/09 at 13:38:44:
Markovich wrote on 10/30/09 at 12:46:25:
I think he was wrong, because I don't think that the feel for chess positions that is necessary for good play comes from study, but from much playing experience.  There is no substitute for experience in chess, and I think it's quite strange that Lasker thought there was.

I don't understand. Of the 200 hours necessary to bring someone from patzer to player, Lasker had reserved 120 hours to playing games! After 80 hours studying some basics, from that point Lasker only recommended playing games, nothing else. Quite the opposite to "studying vs playing". Lasker clearly preferred the latter.


OK my mistake, I thought it was all study.  But do you think that merely 120 hours of playing chess would elevate anyone to the top one-quarter of one percent?  (That's 1 in 250, right?)


Perhaps it should be seen in its historical background.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #147 - 10/30/09 at 14:56:50
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/30/09 at 13:38:44:
Markovich wrote on 10/30/09 at 12:46:25:
I think he was wrong, because I don't think that the feel for chess positions that is necessary for good play comes from study, but from much playing experience.  There is no substitute for experience in chess, and I think it's quite strange that Lasker thought there was.

I don't understand. Of the 200 hours necessary to bring someone from patzer to player, Lasker had reserved 120 hours to playing games! After 80 hours studying some basics, from that point Lasker only recommended playing games, nothing else. Quite the opposite to "studying vs playing". Lasker clearly preferred the latter.


OK my mistake, I thought it was all study.  But do you think that merely 120 hours of playing chess would elevate anyone to the top one-quarter of one percent?  (That's 1 in 250, right?)
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #146 - 10/30/09 at 13:38:44
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Markovich wrote on 10/30/09 at 12:46:25:
I think he was wrong, because I don't think that the feel for chess positions that is necessary for good play comes from study, but from much playing experience.  There is no substitute for experience in chess, and I think it's quite strange that Lasker thought there was.

I don't understand. Of the 200 hours necessary to bring someone from patzer to player, Lasker had reserved 120 hours to playing games! After 80 hours studying some basics, from that point Lasker only recommended playing games, nothing else. Quite the opposite to "studying vs playing". Lasker clearly preferred the latter.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #145 - 10/30/09 at 13:35:24
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Although we have played many games over the years, we make the same mistakes. That's why we are not grandmasters.

I really like the good strategy books, like "Chess Strategy For Club Players", much more than yet another tactics book. Strategy is what the game is about. Tactics are the means.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #144 - 10/30/09 at 12:46:25
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I think he was wrong, because I don't think that the feel for chess positions that is necessary for good play comes from study, but from much playing experience.  There is no substitute for experience in chess, and I think it's quite strange that Lasker thought there was.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #143 - 10/30/09 at 09:36:13
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So, Lasker was wrong.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #142 - 10/30/09 at 05:38:39
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How did he get this result of 200 hours? Lasker made "the following calculation":
Rules and exercises - 5 hours
Basic endings - 5 hours
Some openings - 10 hours
Combination - 20 hours
Position - 40 hours 
Gameplay plus analysis - 120 hours
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #141 - 10/29/09 at 23:00:18
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Em. Lasker: Lehrbuch des Schachspiels, 1925, pp. 282-283: "In zweihundert Stunden müßte der junge Mann, auch wenn er gar kein Talent für das Schachspiel hat, soweit vorgeschritten sein, daß er zur Klasse jener Tausend gehört."

Thus Lasker believed that a master could bring a novice in 200 hours of systematical, well-planned training to the status of someone who no longer needed to take odds. Is that the same as "master"? From the perspective of Lasker, probably not. But he estimates the number of all players as 250,000, so to belong to the 1000 best players would already mean a lot. 
« Last Edit: 10/30/09 at 05:31:22 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Jesse Gersenson
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #140 - 10/29/09 at 22:16:02
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Jupp53 wrote on 10/29/09 at 15:42:32:
...I want to throw in two corrections first:

1. Em. Lasker spoke about 1.000 hours of training as an assumption. And it is stunning, how correct his estimation fits to the scientific psychological research.

Jupp53, give a reference (title, publisher, page number, or webpage) 
to support your comment that Lasker said 1,000 hours (?!) of training 
are needed for him to turn any average adult into master? Failing this, 
please consider retracting point 1. from your above post.

I recall the 100 hour figure from "Lasker's Manual of Chess". 

Two quick references I found online supporting my 100 hour figure:

Chesscafe - Bruce Pandolfini
http://www.chesscafe.com/bruce/bruce124.htm

"Emanuel Lasker, the greatest of all chess champions in my opinion, 
once said that he could take any average adult who didn’t know how 
to play and make him a chess master with 100 hours of chess study"

Chessbase
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2628

"Emanuel Lasker once said that he could turn a novice into an expert 
in 100 hours of lessons."

  
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Markovich
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #139 - 10/29/09 at 18:02:48
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Jupp53 wrote on 10/29/09 at 15:42:32:

This means: Playing open games is a shortcut advice (even if I think it is true in essence). The advice has to be more personal.


Well this may be, but no one is going to get idividualized instruction in a chess forum.  That's what teachers are for, and no, I'm not interested in making a project here some of some particular player's personal improvement.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
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