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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Openings for adult class players (Read 182624 times)
Jupp53
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #198 - 11/10/09 at 11:46:10
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Uruk wrote on 11/09/09 at 22:00:19:
Chess players don't even see individual pieces.
They see blocks: fianchettoes, pawn chains etc.

This was the theory of H.A.Simon and his research group but that's only a part of it. 

There was a significant positive correlation between playing strength and the DeGroot task (looking for some seconds at a position and reconstruction it at a board with all pieces of a chess set) in 'natural game' positions in about two of three (quasi-)experimental studies. Scientific research tends to publish only statistically significant results. The from the content significant fact of no proven correlation in 1/3 of the cases was neither explicitly reported nor dicussed till a scandinavian researcher (forgive me - I don't have the file any more) introduced the concept of typicality. It did fit to my data, showing something like 'ecological valid' perception patterns in natural positions.

Take this one:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
This is a quiet position of the game Karpov-Spasski, Montreal 1979, after move 21 of white. You'll find not much difference between players of different strength in remembering this position, at least this happened in my study. The reason behind this is simple: isolated pawn is a common known structure from about level 1200+ and the source of errors lies in the position of some pieces only (Pa3, Ph6, Rooks and Queen more probably than Bishops).

Now top players (GM-level) do perceive differences in 'chunks'(=your 'blocks' of pieces plus moves or plans around those blocks) faster and more precisely. B.e. the black castling position misses the rook and h7 has moved to h6. Those top players know often the game and eventually the opening(s) this position arose off after a five to ten seconds presentation. So they have more patterns for the automatic (=without sustained attention) comparison of the position with memory content.

So it is at least probable, that more skilled players perceive more groups and more individual stones on the board.

Edit: tks for help - modified text in hope to make it more readable and the position back to the used position.
« Last Edit: 11/10/09 at 23:19:21 by Jupp53 »  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #197 - 11/09/09 at 22:00:19
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Chess players don't even see individual pieces.
They see blocks: fianchettoes, pawn chains etc.

Show a strong player a reasonably standard position with 30 pieces for three seconds, guess what?
He will set up the familiar blocks.

If the pieces are scattered randomly he'll do much worse.

In Stigma's diagram Qb8+ sprang first (back rank picture), saw ...Rc8, then saw the mate picture Bd6+Rf8,
wanted to play two moves in one, then found the right order.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #196 - 11/09/09 at 20:54:59
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Markovich wrote on 11/09/09 at 03:41:29:
@Stigma: In that tactic, I rather suspect that even the big boys would take some sort of note of Black's trouble on the back rank before spotting White's shot.  The question is, how quickly does it take someone to put two and two together? 

When I go over tactics exercises, I always take some time to consider the material, activity of the various pieces and the relative king safety before trying to produce a move.  If that's a mistake, I'll be hanged.  You know in a game of chess, you never come to the current move without having spent a lot of time thinking about these things.  So I don't think that many tactics are based on pure pattern recognition.  


This is an interesting topic. I have always thoght that all players save absolute beginners see at least some tactical ideas immediately, and the rest you have to find by deliberately inspecting the position for clues. I'm not sure, but I kind of hope I would have seen Bd6! in that Reinfeld position quickly. But then recognizing tactics is a relative strong point of my game. Of course it would also be much more difficult to spot at the end of a visualized line than in an actual board position.

But surely Markovich, you too encounter positions both in games and exercises where your brain is well on its way calculating if Bxh7+ (say) wins or not, even before you have any conscious thought of the features of the position? That's what I call pattern recognition...

It would be nice to hear some title holders' opinions on this!
  

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Jesse Gersenson
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #195 - 11/09/09 at 06:43:29
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Stigma wrote on 11/08/09 at 01:57:19:


I don't know if Weteschnik discusses such safety checks, but Heisman and Avni certainly do.


Yes, he does. The last chapter, having explained the mechanics of tactics for the whole book, he outlines a system to be used on each move. Basically, he looks at each piece and sees if it has any tactical chances and otherwise figures out what it's 'status' is.   
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #194 - 11/09/09 at 03:41:29
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@Stigma: In that tactic, I rather suspect that even the big boys would take some sort of note of Black's trouble on the back rank before spotting White's shot.  The question is, how quickly does it take someone to put two and two together? 

When I go over tactics exercises, I always take some time to consider the material, activity of the various pieces and the relative king safety before trying to produce a move.  If that's a mistake, I'll be hanged.  You know in a game of chess, you never come to the current move without having spent a lot of time thinking about these things.  So I don't think that many tactics are based on pure pattern recognition.  

I certainly do agree that familiarity with many tactical motifs makes it much easier to spot tactics.  You know in an exercise that "the tactics light is on," but you don't know that with the same certainty at the board.
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #193 - 11/09/09 at 01:27:13
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Edited:
Moderator's Note:  I have been asked to split this thread twice now.  I will leave it alone for a while but  continue to monitor the thread and split it if the topic strays too far.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #192 - 11/08/09 at 01:57:19
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@Jesse Gersenson:
I had a look at Weteschnik's book at a friend's place, and it is very much in my category b) above: First you recognize the tactical features of the position (the "tactical weaknesses" as I call them), then you remember the associated tactical motifs, and finally you calculate to check that everything works. So it's probably a book I would recommend too. Smiley

Straggler wrote on 11/07/09 at 21:33:44:
If you rely on your intuition to ring the alarm bells when necessary, your intuition may keep letting you down. 

Everyone should know if they can trust their tactical intuition or not. The ideal to become a really strong player is to develop a good intuition by looking at lots of tactics, preferably at a young age. The second best thing is to look carefully at the tactical features of the position one is evaluating, whether the current one on the board or a few moves ahead. Intuition with a crutch perhaps, but with frequent use it may become more and more automatic.

Straggler wrote on 11/07/09 at 21:33:44:
For spotting tactical ideas of your own, simply looking at every forcing move (e.g. mate threats) seems to go a long way. I'm much better at this than at anticipating what my opponent might do.

Almost all chess players are like this, so you shouldn't feel too bad about that. Though interestingly Avni in the his book "The Grandmaster's Mind" found that always trying to find the opponent's plans first was a defining feature of grandmasters' thinking!

Straggler wrote on 11/07/09 at 21:33:44:

As I said, I'm talking about missing obvious tactics. I wouldn't feel too bad about it if, as Black in your example, I overlooked the clever way White can take advantage of the pin. I would probably have overlooked the fact that there was a pin.


It sounds to me like maybe you're not looking at all the important aspects of the position before thinking further ahead.

In principle, the position after your intended move (the "final candidate move" - Heisman) is as well known to you as the current board position. So you can gradually train a process where you always visualize the position after your intended move, and ask yourself where all the tactical weaknesses in your own position are, and what forcing moves the opponent has. Only if you don't find any tactics after, say, 30 seconds will you actually make the move and press the clock. I have trained this until it's almost automatic myself, and now actually feel an immediate pang of guilt when I occasionally forget to check my move for tactics. 

A final check that some people use is holding the piece and looking around before they release it. Of course, they must still move that piece, but even this can avoid some blunders.

I don't know if Weteschnik discusses such safety checks, but Heisman and Avni certainly do.
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #191 - 11/07/09 at 22:16:25
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Straggler wrote on 11/07/09 at 21:33:44:
I would probably have overlooked the fact that there was a pin.


@Straggler
to paraphrase:
tactics, tactics, tactics. 

to rephrase:
Weteschnik. Weteschnik. Weteschnik. 

Here is the start of chapter 2 "The Pin" from his book:

"Essentially a pin is a chain of three chess pieces. The first point in this chain is the attacking piece, the second point is the pinned piece, and the third piece is the target of the pin."

"In this chapter I will first take a closer look at the different kings of targets, then I will examine the pinned piece, and finally the attacker. The final points to examine are the conditions to set up and break a pin."

you then get 27 pages about pins which include 82 diagrams, some of them include instructive arrows, shaded out squares or circled squared to highlight the key idea.

no need for a chess board. 

this is the one, and only, book you need:
http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/products/2/31/understanding_chess_tactics_by_marti...
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #190 - 11/07/09 at 21:33:44
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Emms discusses his "check every move" method in his "Survival Guide to Competitive Chess". He says that in many cases it is even more important to be aware of every possibility that exists than to calculate the possibilities accurately. He does indeed stress the importance of this in critical situations, e.g. when sacrificing. But if (like me) after years of playing you still overlook obvious tactics, it's probably worth trying to do it on every move. If you rely on your intuition to ring the alarm bells when necessary, your intuition may keep letting you down. 

Emms does not suggest that you consider every possible move that you yourself might make - only your opponent. For spotting tactical ideas of your own, simply looking at every forcing move (e.g. mate threats) seems to go a long way. I'm much better at this than at anticipating what my opponent might do.

As I said, I'm talking about missing obvious tactics. I wouldn't feel too bad about it if, as Black in your example, I overlooked the clever way White can take advantage of the pin. I would probably have overlooked the fact that there was a pin.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #189 - 11/07/09 at 19:44:07
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Straggler wrote on 11/07/09 at 18:56:58:
Quote:
How do you train now to avoid blunders?
I mostly play slow games against Fritz in "sparring" mode (the one where Fritz occasionally allows you to play a combination), trying to focus on not dropping material unless I intend to. Before moving I try to follow John Emms's advice and consider every legal move that my opponent would then have. But either I manage to overlook one somehow, or I consider it but don't notice that it wins material.

Where did Emms give that advice? My first thought is it sounds very slow and inefficient to consider every legal move for the opponent. I actually do this, but only when I think I'm about to decide the game in my favour. It takes time, but I've often had problems staying objective in these situations before.

I think most players at all levels don't think like that, rather they recognize a pattern and try to find out if any the relevant tactics work. Looking for tactical weaknesses is a thinking shortcut that reduces the number of moves to a managable list.

Take the following position from one of Reinfeld's 1001 books (White to move):

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Do you find the best move for White because

a) You just see it (i.e. pattern recognition)

b) You see two big tactical weaknesses in the black position (the weak back rank and the queen pinned, with 1 defender to 1 attacker) and try to exploit them, or

c) It's legal and you have to consider it?

To my mind, a) is the most efficient and surely the GM method, while b) or something like it is the best conscious method.

It would be interesting to hear more about Emms' method though.

(Edit: The system I use to find tactical weaknesses would also turn up W Qb3 and Be5 hanging, the fork threat ...Nd2, B Ne4 and pd4 hanging. Certainly if I didn't see White's best move immediately, the first thing to note is that my queen is hanging! Apart from that it's logical to rank the tactical weaknesses by how "big" they are (Mate threat > queen > knight > pawn for Black's weaknesses here) and try to exploit the biggest ones first.)
« Last Edit: 11/08/09 at 01:00:51 by Stigma »  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #188 - 11/07/09 at 18:56:58
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Thanks for this advice, Stigma.

Quote:
How do you train now to avoid blunders?
I mostly play slow games against Fritz in "sparring" mode (the one where Fritz occasionally allows you to play a combination), trying to focus on not dropping material unless I intend to. Before moving I try to follow John Emms's advice and consider every legal move that my opponent would then have. But either I manage to overlook one somehow, or I consider it but don't notice that it wins material.

Quote:
In tactics training programs I sometimes turn the board and try to find the solutions from the "wrong" side; this is more similar to avoiding blunders.
CT-Art provides many positions in which there is a combination for whichever side is to move, so you have to not only spot your opponent's threat but also find a way of getting your blow in first (usually by sacrificing with check). But the combinations are a good deal less obvious than the sort of thing I regularly miss.

Quote:
One often overlooked fact: It's much easier to blunder when you're unsure what plan is right, because you will be considering too many different moves and not have time to check them all properly.
That's absolutely true. And (to get back on topic for a moment) that's why, even at lower levels, I think one has to sort out one's opening repertoire as part of the process of improvement. Knowledge of the opening won't win the game for you, but it might keep you in with a chance.

Heisman's new book "The Improving Chess Thinker" sounds interesting too.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #187 - 11/07/09 at 17:59:41
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@Straggler

How do you train now to avoid blunders? I think playing "safely" (meaning with tactical control, not passively!) is a skill that can be trained much the same way you would with basic skills in other sports: Find a good process and develop conscious competence (you do the right things but you have to think about it and it consumes thinking time), then gradually over time it will turn into unconscious competence (you do the right things automatically and quickly).

One reason for playing sharper, open positions is to get as much training as possible from actually playing. But for that you need to use a concrete method, and evaluate yourself honestly on whether you managed to follow it and why/why not. And yes, it will hurt results short-term. If you're going to play calmly until you eliminate blunders you will need more traning time with tactical positions away from the board instead.

Somehow, when it's your turn, you have to always check what the opponent is threatening AND what the opponent will be threatening if you play your intendend move. So avoiding blunders really requires two different safeguards, at the start and at the end of the thought process.

Some methods I've used with students is to have them point out the tactical weaknesses in the position on every move, and always look at checks, captures and threats for both themselves and their opponent. I always stress that it's MORE important to see tactics for the opponent, since missing them can lose the game immediately. If you miss a tactic for yourself the game just goes on in most cases.

Apart from these thinking shortcuts, the best way to get better at spotting tactics is of course to see lots of them (pattern recognition again). In tactics training programs I sometimes turn the board and try to find the solutions from the "wrong" side; this is more similar to avoiding blunders.

One often overlooked fact: It's much easier to blunder when you're unsure what plan is right, because you will be considering too many different moves and not have time to check them all properly. It's also easier to blunder in bad positions than in good ones! So for most players, unless they blunder absolutely every game, focusing only on directly eliminating blunders is wrong. You need positional play, planning and some understanding of the openings too.

Some good sources on avoiding blunders:

Heisman: Looking for Trouble 
- has lots of exercises on finding the opponent's threats

Heisman's "Novice Nook" column, archived at [url]http://www.chesscafe.com/archives/archives.htm#Novice Nook [/url]

R. James: Move Two. See http://www.chesskids.com/library04.shtml

Avni: Danger in Chess

I also have a good impression of the Weteschnik book, but haven't used it myself yet.
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #186 - 11/07/09 at 13:04:27
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Straggler wrote on 11/07/09 at 06:45:28:
if only I could achieve it: viz. to stop blundering material.


A blunder's a blunder, whether it's a piece lost in a wild position, or a pawn dropped in a quiet position. 

Weteschnik's Understanding Chess Tactics belongs on every under-1800 chess players' night stand. It has reduced my blundering from once or twice a game to once every 5 games.

Even better, I see my oppent's blunders!

http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/products/2/31/understanding_chess_tactics_by_marti...
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #185 - 11/07/09 at 12:53:55
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@Stigma:
We do agree about most practical points. What was the point about my remark: "do we know?" has to be explained after your long post. We don't know as far as I know. We didn't know 25 years ago when I did my scientific experimental research about the two cognitive theories of 'Levels of processing' and 'Encoding specifity' and playing strength in chess. If there has been developed something really important since then it didn't catch my attention (which maybe due to my work area as a clinical psychologist since then).

At that time definitelely nobody knew what a pattern is. There were a lot of people knowing a lot about different models of the pattern paradigma. To say it simple: Models are always a poorer abstraction of the reality. 

This leads to remarks like the one above in this topic, where discussions about adults learning behaviour were called bloviation in relation to opening repertoires. It's the way the majority thinks and it is justified as it needs some more steps to walk before you can use abstract concepts.

Psychologically we also don't know what rote learning is. We only know how to give instructions about it to experimental subjects. To my continous astonishment since 35 years this is difficult to comprehend for a lot of people which leads again and again to the same mistakes. Here in chess it leads again and again to the mistake of sticking to a special opening for teaching more than this opening.

It may be completely the best for teacher A to stick to the two knights for teaching special tactical and strategical concepts. Teacher B sticks to the bishop gambit and is completely right too. Teacher C is able to do this with the Blackmar Diemer (oh no! don't touch it!).

It was DeGroot in an article about the revival of his long time nearly forgotten doctoral thesis (forgive - I didn't keep the source. Every now and then I put all paper stuff out of my room into a trash container. It's only my memory) after his retirement from active university work, who gave the advice of being modest about different psychological processes and their implications for mental output. He referred to sustained attention but he believed this was generally valid.
------- 
So are my conclusions to the topic: 
- There is no special opening best fitting to an overall adult class player. 
- There seem to be wrong openings at special levels of expertise. 
- If you want to learn more about special concepts take appropriate openings. For 'development' you should learn this by a fitting opening. Don't take the half open games. Take an open game without pawn chains. For 'pawn chains' try the french.
- There's a logic in chess itself if you want to become a stronger player. There's the board, there's material, there are moves. It doesn't help learning by heart opening moves if you don't know how to protect your pieces. It helps understanding why certain moves allow to protect the own pieces and attack the enemies pieces.

@Straggler: Quote:
No disrespect to anyone, but I do sometimes wonder whether the strong players here (i.e., probably, the majority) really understand what it feels like to be a weak player who never seems to improve.

This is true and holds not only in chess. How difficult is it for an adult to comprehend the complexity of the first steps in writing? You get a feeling for it if you try to write a sentence in your language by the not dominating hand from right to left and bottom up. Try it and remember: You need no more memorizing how it is written in the sequel of letters.  Shocked

So I would trust more in teachers with experience in teaching or someone a class stronger. There are some concepts taught better by strong professionals and there are some concepts taught better by peers or a little more progressed players. Young Robert Hübner in Cologne had the method of playing as long against other players who won at the beginning 6 out of 10 games against him till he made 6 out of 10. (Off-Topic: Is Dr. Tröger to praise for this? Does anyone reading here know?) This is good for several reasons:
- Motivation is highest in this area. (40%-60% difficulty of a task.)
- The probability of learning something fitting to the next step with your background is very high.
- Common analysis or exchange is easiest on an about equal level.
- If if you need your time in getting better or you don't succeed because of lack of studies - it's the most fun to play against this range.
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #184 - 11/07/09 at 06:45:28
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No disrespect to anyone, but I do sometimes wonder whether the strong players here (i.e., probably, the majority) really understand what it feels like to be a weak player who never seems to improve. I know that feeling very well, and it seems to me that one thing above all others would bring about a huge improvement in my playing strength, if only I could achieve it: viz. to stop blundering material. I don't think this is the same as, or even has very much to do with, improving my attacking play or my understanding of open positions.  

Moreover it seems to me that, if one finds something hard to do, it makes sense to start by learning to do something similar but simpler. Since I'm less likely to blunder material in a quiet position than in a wild position, it seems logical to aim for quiet positions if my top priority is to eliminate blunders. I'm more likely to overlook a possible move by my opponent if he has 40 possible moves than if he has 20. If I ever manage to stop blundering in quiet positions, I can then think about playing more tactical positions and trying not to blunder in those too. But, as Stigma wrote a while ago, "switching to an active, attacking style if you still suck at calculation will not improve results!"

Note: I am not suggesting that weak players should play subtle, positional openings. I am talking about keeping the position quiet but strategically simple. (Whether this approach makes the game too boring to be worth playing is a different issue.) 

I am also not suggesting that we can improve without working on our tactics. The question is how we should work on our tactics -- by aiming for tactical positions in serious games, or by studying such positions at home?
  
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