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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Openings for adult class players (Read 182710 times)
msiipola
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #33 - 10/11/09 at 05:57:03
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Thanks for the answers.

>"You haven't tried the Sicilian yet, so that is a logical option. "
I have always thought the Sicilian has to much theory (for me).

>"There is no silver bullet"
So true!

But it would be so much easier if somebody told me, learn and play THIS opening! Smiley
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #32 - 10/10/09 at 15:30:04
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Somebody wanted plain and simple advice.  Here it is:  Buy a book.  

Everything else I'm about to tell you is my own subjective opinion.  Take it or leave it as you see fit.  But if you want a pre-packaged opening repertoire you can learn and play, then go out, find a decent repertoire book, and follow it.

I would bet that most of us have cobbled together our repertoires in bits and pieces.  We pick openings that our chess heroes play -- there was a time in the US, when almost everyone played 1.e4 after Fischer and 1.d4 was considered an opening for old men.  We pick openings based on games that we come across.  We pick up ideas from opening books.

There is no magic bullet.  The never ending search for just the right opening that, if only you could find it, would turn you from patzer to Grandmaster?  Forget it.  Pick something reasonable.  Stay with it.  Only way to really learn the plans, the typical tactics, the usual endgames, etc.  Think it was Botvinnik who said that you don't find novelties in new openings, you find them when you are playing your old opening for the 1,000th time.  Switch only when it stops working or you get bored.

BTW, the only way to really learn or master an opening is to play it OTB, face-to-face, in tournaments.  With decent time controls.  Over and over.  Under pressure.  Sorry if this offends anyone, but don't come here whining about your opening repertoire if all you're doing is playing speed chess on the internet or fiddling with your grandmaster 2009 software thingy.

What to play?  Only you or perhaps your coach can decide.  Why come here and ask a bunch of people who don't know you and have never seen you play to pick your openings for you?  Play over games, try things out for yourself -- see what you like and what you don't.  Don't get hung up on whether its +/=, = or =/+ -- until you are at least a master and an opening edge is more likely to count for something.  More important to get a position you understand.  Better to be slightly worse and know what to do, than to be equal and have no clue.

All that said, I do think that when it comes to chess that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.  Easiest to learn Black defenses -- 1) classic openings where you occupy the center with pawns, then 2) hypermodern openings where you occupy the center with pieces, finally 3) openings that give up the center.  So I personally think beginners and those with no time to study, probably better off with 1.e4 e5 and 1.d4 d5, as easier to learn and handle, but I am not dogmatic about it.  If the KID floats your boat, by all means go for it.

Use common sense.  Hard to jump in and master the Najdorf in one go.  Even Kasparov had trouble keeping up with two big Black defenses at the same time.  Granted, you don't need to know as much theory and keep up quite the way he did, but if you think you know the Kings Indian because you can get to move 5 or 6, then you are mistaken.  

One idea:  Look for stepping stones or sidelines that you can play until you get your footing.  For example, try the Meran with the Cam Springs until you're ready to add the Moscow or Botvinnik.  Try the Laskers before the Tartakower.  Try the Modern Schevy before the Classical.  

Another idea:  Look to economize.  If you play the QGD, then meet the English with 1..e6 and 2..d5.  No need at class level to start trying to learn a whole new defensive system vs the English.  Use your time where it counts.  If you see 1.e4 in a large percentage of your games, work on your 1.e4 defense.  Will pay more dividends than spending weeks on the From Gambit vs 1.f4.  (Unless you find the From fun, in which case ...).      

You get the idea.

Rant over.  Feel free to resume your normal programming.

Smiley                
  
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TN
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #31 - 10/10/09 at 10:14:23
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msiipola wrote on 10/10/09 at 07:43:27:
I'm an adult player (rating <1500) who have started to play chess a few years ago. I have a full time work, family and house. When all my duties have been done, I have less then 10 hours in a week which I can spend on chess playing and studies. So I don't want to waste those few hours on ineffective opening study.

As white I play the Colle.

As black against 1.d4, I play QGD. For example: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 0-0. I found this recommendation on Jerry Silman's website.

But as black against 1.e4 I don't know what to play. I have played the Petrov, the Italian, the Scandinavian, the Caro-Cann and the French (without the Winawer). I can't say if I like or dislike any of these openings. I have played mostly against (much) stronger players on the local club. I feel it doesn't' mater which opening I play against these people. I lose most of the times anyway.

I know as beginner level player you should play open games, but I have not the time to study all the lines of the open game! I rather study tactics and endgame.

My idea is to choose ONE opening against 1.e4 and stick with that for a long time. But as my results against 1.e4 are disappointing, I don't know what to choose.

Does it mater which defense I select against 1.e4?


You haven't tried the Sicilian yet, so that is a logical option. If you want a Sicilian that you can learn very quickly, the Sveshnikov, Kan or Classical is for you. The former was in fact called 'The Easiest Sicilian' by Chess Stars, the Kan is extremely flexible and does not require much knowledge of theory, and the Classical is probably the most demanding of the three (although still less work than most other Sicilians if you find some shortcuts for Black).

Have you decided on an antidote to the Flank Openings (1.Nf3, 1.c4, 1.f4 and the rest)? If not, then the Symmetrical English usually combines well with the Sicilian in a repertoire.
  

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msiipola
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #30 - 10/10/09 at 07:43:27
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I'm an adult player (rating <1500) who have started to play chess a few years ago. I have a full time work, family and house. When all my duties have been done, I have less then 10 hours in a week which I can spend on chess playing and studies. So I don't want to waste those few hours on ineffective opening study.

As white I play the Colle.

As black against 1.d4, I play QGD. For example: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 0-0. I found this recommendation on Jerry Silman's website.

But as black against 1.e4 I don't know what to play. I have played the Petrov, the Italian, the Scandinavian, the Caro-Cann and the French (without the Winawer). I can't say if I like or dislike any of these openings. I have played mostly against (much) stronger players on the local club. I feel it doesn't' mater which opening I play against these people. I lose most of the times anyway.

I know as beginner level player you should play open games, but I have not the time to study all the lines of the open game! I rather study tactics and endgame.

My idea is to choose ONE opening against 1.e4 and stick with that for a long time. But as my results against 1.e4 are disappointing, I don't know what to choose.

Does it mater which defense I select against 1.e4?
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #29 - 10/05/09 at 05:34:43
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If the top players in the world and club players alike can get very good, playable games as Black against the Colle and London, then I agree completely with MNb.

This is akin to giving up the Sicilian because you're not afraid of the open variation but the Smith-Morra.

The Colle, London, Smith-Morra and other non-standard white options all suffer from the fact that White really doesn't try to take advantage of the first move to the full extent.  White can get away with this policy but only at the cost of allowing a theoretically equal game.  Practically, white may score fairly well, but that is more due to the surprise value of the opening than its real strength.

I sincerely doubt we will see Carlsen or other top players using these openings regularly in our life-times.
  
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MNb
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #28 - 10/04/09 at 22:49:34
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Which only supports my opinion that the Colle and the London are not good reasons to change repertoire.
  

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battleangel
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #27 - 10/04/09 at 21:25:05
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1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6
now after 3. Bf4 or 3.e3, 3. ... c5 is good enough to win
  
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MNb
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #26 - 10/04/09 at 20:57:56
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Of course, if Black doesn't mind to play and the NID, and the QID and the KID with Nf3 you are completely right.
Still I think it simpler to find antidotes that fit into the NID/QID repertoire. A suggestion: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 b6
a) 3.e3 Bb7 4.Bd3 Ne4 5.0-0 e6 6.Nbd2 f5
b) 3.Bf4 Bb7 4.e3 Ne4 followed by e6 and f5 (or the other way round)
c) 3.Bg5 Bb7 (Ne4!?) 4.Bxf6 exf6.

At lower levels the Colle and London are often played out of fear, ie to achieve a riskfree game. The antidote is unbalancing.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #25 - 10/03/09 at 07:23:17
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MNb wrote on 10/02/09 at 04:26:01:

Adherents of the KID also complain about the Colle and London. The Leningrad Dutch is quite good against it. Still out of principle I think it's wrong to change repertoire because of these two openings.

My instinct is to agree with this, but I wonder whether it's entirely logical. Suppose you like to play the Nimzo and QID, but against the Colle and London you prefer ...g6 to ...e6. If, after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3, you know that your opponent will probably go 3.e3 or 3.Bf4 (because most of your opponents do), isn't it logical to play 2...g6, thus maximising your chances of getting the sort of position you like? Assuming you don't mind playing a KID after 3.c4, of course. At lower levels, the Colle and London are the main lines after 1.d4.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #24 - 10/02/09 at 16:21:14
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Hakkenbar wrote on 10/01/09 at 09:36:44:
I estimate that at least 80% of the d4 openings on the below 1800 level is Colle and London system. Even if they play 2. c4, they will play e3 before developing their queens bishop.


I've faced 8 colles out of my last 17 games as black.
  

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MNb
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #23 - 10/02/09 at 04:26:01
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Hakkenbar wrote on 10/01/09 at 09:36:44:
I estimate that at least 80% of the d4 openings on the below 1800 level is Colle and London system. Even if they play 2. c4, they will play e3 before developing their queens bishop.

Adherents of the KID also complain about the Colle and London. The Leningrad Dutch is quite good against it. Still out of principle I think it's wrong to change repertoire because of these two openings.
After 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3/3.Bf4 Black's most ambitious setup is 3...c5 and 4...Nc6. You will benefit from studying and playing this against both the Colle and London.
After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Nf3 you can unbalance the game with 5...a6. The idea is to play a Tarrasch still after 6.cxd5 exd5. If White plays 6.Be2 or 6.Bd3 you answer ...dxc4 and enter a QGA with an extra tempo. So White's most annoying is 6.a3 when again ...dxc4 7.Bxc4 b5 is most ambitious. Black tries to prove that 6.a3 is a loss of tempo.
It's handy to play through a couple of high-level QGA games (with 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 c5 5.Bxc4) to get an idea of how Black plays this type of position. Come on, you should be happy if your opponents play like this and start thinking about creating winning chances!
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #22 - 10/01/09 at 12:24:21
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MNb wrote on 10/01/09 at 03:53:36:


On 1500 level you are doing fine with 3.f4 I suppose. Still I think 3.f4 d5 4.fxe5 Nxe4 5.Nf3 (5.d3 Nxc3 6.bxc3 d4 7.Nf3 Nc6 8.cxd4 Bb4+ and Black might already be better) Bc5 6.d4 Bb4 a problem line. So why not 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 either? 3...Bb4 is not that scary; amongst others you might try 4.Nd5.


MNb, thanks for the comment.  I do like the 4N's and if the Vienna gambit really falls apart for me then I would probably do as you say and just back into the 4N's there as well.  However I do enjoy the Vienna gambit quite a bit and not too long ago beat a master in a simul with the line 1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 f4 d5 4 fxe5 Nxe4 5 d3 Qh4+ which is a lot of fun for white.  In the line you mentioned I actually "invented" my own variation which I've used with some success:  5 d3 Nxc3 6 bxc3 d4 7 Bb2 with Nf3 to follow.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #21 - 10/01/09 at 09:36:44
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Markovich wrote on 09/30/09 at 16:58:36:
If anyone, adult or child, who has no very great understanding of how to activate his pieces and think up tactics, finds it fun to flounder around on the Black side of the Najdorf Sicilian, the Alekhine, the Leningrad Dutch or the King's Indian, I can only look on with pity.  If anyone below 2000, adult or child, wants to improve at chess and win more of his games (really, is that not fun?), I have already expressed my view as to how best to do so.
.


Although I agree with Markovich that it is probably best at my level to play the tarrasch at my level, the practical problem that I encounter is, that almost all my opponents try to avoid it. I estimate that at least 80% of the d4 openings on the below 1800 level is Colle and London system. Even if they play 2. c4, they will play e3 before developing their queens bishop. I always reasoned that I have at least equallity at move 3 or so (3..Bf5!), but the positions are not very exciting. And although I hardly ever loose against it, it is also difficult to win. 
So, regarding that I want to win with black, wouldn't it then be better to try the Kings Indian or Leningrad Dutch. It might be easier to imbalance the position with these openings.
Most opponents will also try to avoid the benko  (they play 2. Ktf3)and I don't want to play the Englund gambit.
  
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MNb
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #20 - 10/01/09 at 03:53:36
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sharpplay wrote on 09/30/09 at 13:32:38:

White

1 e4

1...e5: 2 Nc3  Now against 2...Nf6 I play 3 f4 (Vienna Gambit) and against any other second move I play the Scotch 4 N's with an occasional Belgrade Gambit if I'm in the mood


On 1500 level you are doing fine with 3.f4 I suppose. Still I think 3.f4 d5 4.fxe5 Nxe4 5.Nf3 (5.d3 Nxc3 6.bxc3 d4 7.Nf3 Nc6 8.cxd4 Bb4+ and Black might already be better) Bc5 6.d4 Bb4 a problem line. So why not 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 either? 3...Bb4 is not that scary; amongst others you might try 4.Nd5.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #19 - 09/30/09 at 22:08:26
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A TKD Traxler (to take an extreme) and an endgame with 3 pieces and 5 pawns each are both open. Yet playing one a lot wont help much with the other.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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