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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Openings for adult class players (Read 182579 times)
MartinC
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #243 - 12/16/10 at 10:45:36
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Have to say that my experiences - and the games I've observed - is very like Eric's. Consider that a typical club/congress player doesn't know who they're playing in advance, what colour they'll have etc etc. Or indeed often what many of their opponents play anyway.

So to be prepared to the level that scares people they'd have to remember everything in detail. That simply isn't possible.

The most prep you'll be facing is a few half remembered minutes of work based on a previous game from a year or two back. Thats only going to be dangerous if you're playing a dodgy side line Smiley

Another illustration: I've been playing d6/e6 Sicillians for a few years now. Now of course I'm aware that the English attack is very critical against these so yes I've prepared some stuff on occasion. But I've yet to see it in practice - so how much do you really think I could remember should it come to it? If I'm lucky the main plan.... But it'll be fun Smiley

The only thing to genuinely worry about are lines which more or less require you but not your opponent to play moves you're unlikely to find over the board.
  
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MNb
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #242 - 12/16/10 at 10:18:01
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Straggler wrote on 12/15/10 at 12:35:17:
But in my experience White usually plays 4.d3. In this case both Emms and Davies propose 4...Be7 - which, if White continues with c3, Nbd2 etc, leads to positions very similar to a closed Lopez! What do people think of this advice?

There is nothing wrong with 4...Bc5 of course. But 4...Be7 5...0-0 and in certain circumstances 6...d5 is more similar to the Marshall Gambit than to the Closed Lopez.

Carld wrote on 12/15/10 at 22:28:15:
I also know that my life is to the point that if I'm ever going to be good at this game (for whatever measure of "good" you want to use), it's literally now or never.

The nasty thing is that the Colle-Koltanowski won't help you to improve at chess. But if you just want to have a good time (a very valid approach) just stick to the C-K. It's up to you. But if you want to improve you better take Eric's advise seriously. If you do you don't have to change your repertoire in one time though. Begin with Avrukh's Slow Slav: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c6 4.c4. Later you will change move order to 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3. Also 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 b6 4.Bd3 Bb7 5.0-0 and 6.c4 essentially is a QID.
Then take up the fianchetto stuff: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4.
Third step will be 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 and 4.c4.
Next is 1.d4 d5 2.c4
and finally 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3, when you still can answer b6 with 4.e3.

PS: a quick antidote to the GID is 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 d5 4.e3 Bg7 5.Nc3 0-0 6.b4 or even 5.b4. This is the same as 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.c4 Bg7 so you can focus on the KID first. Given its popularity you will have plenty of opportunities to try things out.
  

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Carld
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #241 - 12/16/10 at 08:46:49
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"But there has been no point in the past when the moves that constitute the Morra Gambit, London System, Hippopotamus, Colle-Zukertort, etc., were considered as good as the moves that constitute the Queen's Gambit, the Ruy Lopez, the Scotch, the Nimzo Indian, etc."

I would dispute that. In-fact there was a period early on when it was not clear that the Queen's Gambit was the best followup to d4, and therefor objectively superior to what are now considered Queen Pawn sidelines. However, I'm not going to even try to document it at 3:40am, when I should have been in bed hours ago.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #240 - 12/16/10 at 07:04:02
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Carld wrote on 12/16/10 at 03:27:04:


>I honestly wonder about people who want to avoid opening theory--do they also want to avoid endgame theory?  Why not?  It's all the same in principle, isn't it?

Same in principle, but not the same in practice, as I see it. Endgames (and I do work on those also) are basically a known quantity at this point, fixed in place forever and unchanging (not entirely true, but mostly). Openings are completely the opposite. Openings change constantly, moving in and out of fashion as play and theory evolve. This has created an enormous body of sometimes contradictory theory that is in a constant state of flux.


The principle I was talking about was learning to play good moves and acquiring methods of play in many different positions.  It's true that fashion in openings changes, and I would never advocate playing the same thing forever.  But there has been no point in the past when the moves that constitute the Morra Gambit, London System, Hippopotamus, Colle-Zukertort, etc., were considered as good as the moves that constitute the Queen's Gambit, the Ruy Lopez, the Scotch, the Nimzo Indian, etc.  This is not a matter of fashion.   Refusing to strive for the best moves in the opening--or any phase of the game--is not a recipe for success.

Goodnight everyone, I think I've said all I can on this topic.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #239 - 12/16/10 at 06:51:54
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Alright, as promised, here are the openings from my last 12 opponents rated 2200+.  They haven't been changed in any way, and I chose the last 12 games so as not to pick and choose the less theoretical games:

Game 1:
[White "Me"]
[Black "2247 player"]
{40/90, G/60}
1. d4 e6 2. g3 f5 (2... c5!) 3. Bg2 Nf6 4. c4 Be7 5. Nf3 O-O 6. O-O Ne4 7. Nfd2 I guess we're out of book here? 7... Nxd2 8. Qxd2 Bf6 (8... d6 9. Nc3 e5=) 9. b3 Nc6 10. Bb2 d5 11. e3 Ne7 12. Nc3 c6 13. Ne2 White is better but I went on to lose.  At no point was either player about to get blown off the board due to lack of theoretical opening knowledge.

Game 2:
[White "2223 Player"]
[Black "Me"]
{G/60}
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 a6 5. c4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Qc7 7. Be2 b6?! (7... Bb4!) 8. f4 Bb7 9. Qd3 Bb4 as far as I can tell we're out of book now; this isn't covered in either John Emms' or Hellsten's Kan books 10. Bf3 d6 11. O-O Bxc3?! 12. bxc3?! (12. Qxc3! Bxe4 13. Bxe4 Nxe4 14. Qf3 d5 15. cxd5 exd5 16. Qh5 Nf6 17. Qg5 Kf8) 12... Nbd7 13. e5 Nc5! 14. Qe2 dxe5 15. fxe5 Nfd7 Black is probably slightly better.  The opening was sharp, but the theory books I have on the Kan are no help!

Game 3:
[White "Me"]
[Black "2325 player"]
{G/60}
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Qc2 e6 5. g3 Be7 6. Bg2 O-O 7. O-O Nbd7 8. Nbd2 b6 9. e4 dxe4 10. Nxe4 Bb7 11. Rd1 Qc8 12. Nxf6+ Nxf6 13. c5 Rd8 14. Bg5 (14. Re1!) 14... h6 15. Bxf6 gxf6!? Probably not best, but now White has to punish Black, and I didn't find the correct plan.  Anyway this game followed "theory" for about 14 moves or so, but were those moves really that hard to find?

Game 4:
[White "2203 Player"]
[Black "Me"]
{G/60}
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. b3 a6 4. Bb2 Nc6 5. g3 d5 6. exd5 exd5 7. Qe2+ Qe7 Okay, no theory here... this game was drawn after another 30 moves or so.

Game 5:
[White "Me"]
[Black "2203 Player"]
{G/60}
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nc3 exd5 5. cxd5 Bd6 This is the first time I had ever faced this line over the board; I had no theoretical knowledge.  But that's ok, I just played chess... 6. g3 O-O 7. Bg2 Re8 8. Nf3 Bc7 9. O-O d6 10. Re1 a6 11. a4 Nbd7 12. h3 Rb8 The game is about equal 13. Bf4 Nf8 14. Qc2 Ng6 15. Bg5 h6 16. Bd2 b5 17. axb5 axb5 18. e4 Bd7 19. b3 Bb6 20. Rab1 Qc7 21. Nd1 Ra8 22. Bc3 Ba5 23. Bxf6 Bxe1 24. Nxe1 gxf6 25. Ne3 White has an excellent position for the Exchange, but I failed to win.  Another game where not knowing the theory didn't matter...

Game 6:
[White "2319 Player"]
[Black "Me"]
{G/60}
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nf3 e6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Qc7 6. Ndb5 Qb8 7. g3 a6 8.Nd4 Nf6 9. Bg2 Qc7 10. O-O Nxd4 11. Qxd4 Bc5 This is a main line, but now White plays an "inferior" move. 12. Qd3 Ng4 13. Qe2 Ne5 14. Nd1 d6 We're just playing a game of chess here; I know of no theory in this position! 15. Be3 Bd7 16. Bxc5 Qxc5 17. Ne3? White blunders Bb5 18. c4 Bxc4? (I missed 18... Nxc4! 19. Rfc1 Nxe3 when the Bishop hits the Queen).  Anyway there was some theory here, but the mistakes both players made had nothing to do with lack of theoretical knowledge.

Game 7:
[White "2215 Player"]
[Black "Me"]
{G/60}
1. d4 f5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3 Bb4 5. Qc2 b6 6. a3 Bxc3+ 7. Qxc3 Bb7 8. Nf3 O-O 9. Bd3 d6 10. b4 c5 11. Bb2 Be4 12. Ng5 Bxd3 13. Qxd3 Qe7 14. O-O Nbd7 15.
Nh3 Not much real "theory" in this game either.

Game 8:
[White "IM rated 2500+"]
[Black "Me"]
{G/60}
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c6 4. e3 Nf6 5. Nf3 Nbd7 6. Qc2 a6 I'm almost completely winging it in the opening here.  7. b3 Bb4 8. Bd2 O-O 9. Bd3 Bd6 10. O-O e5 11. cxd5 cxd5 12. dxe5 Nxe5 13. Nxe5 Bxe5 14.Rac1 Be6 The game is about equal, no real sharp theory to worry about.

Game 9:
[White "2323 Player]
[Black "Me"]
{G/60}
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Qc7 5. c4 Nf6 6. Nc3 Nxe4! Okay, there's some theory here, but not much and I had never had this position on the board before so White and Black are on equal footing. 7. Nxe4 Qe5 This is where my knowledge of "theory" ended. 8. Nb5 Qxe4+ 9. Be2 Qe5 10. g3 Qb8 11. Bf4 d6 12. O-O a6 13. Nc3 e6 14. Na4 Be7?  For some reason I completely missed White's threat.  I thought he was only threatening to win the Bishop pair and didn't want to spend even more time stopping that, but I missed his threat to win the exchange!  15. Nb6 Ra7 16. Be3 O-O 17. Bf3 Ne5 18. Bg2 Nd7 19. Nxc8 Rxc8 20. Bxa7 Qxa7 21. Rc1 b6 22. Qd4 Qc7 23. Rfd1 a5 24. b3 Nc5 25. h4 Rd8 26. Qe3 g6 27. a3 a4! 28. bxa4 Nxa4 29. Qb3 Nc5 30. Qb5 Rc8 31. Rb1 Nd7 32. a4 h5 33. Ra1 Bf8 34. a5 bxa5 35. Rxa5 Ne5 36. Ra4 Rb8 37. Qa6 Rb2 38. Bf1??  Nf3+ 39. Kg2 Qc5 40. Kxf3 Qxf2+ 41. Ke4 f5+ 42. Kd3 Rb3# I left the whole game to show off, but also to show that opening knowledge is not the main reason games are won or lost, even against 2300+ players.

Game 10:
[White "2203 Player"]
[Black "Me"]
{G/60}
1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Bf4 c5 4. c3 cxd4 Transposing into a Slav Exchange, which I had studied recently.  5. cxd4 Nc6 6. Nc3 Bf5 I had never played this line before, not even in Blitz!  7. e3 e6 8.Qb3 Bb4 9. a3?! Considering that the main line goes 9. Bb5 Bxc3+, this is definitely a waste of time.  9... Bxc3+ 10. bxc3 O-O 11. Be2 b6 12. O-O Ne4 13. Rfc1 g5 A standard plan 14. Bg3 h5 15. h3 g4?! (15... Nxg3!) Anyway this opening was kind of theoretical.

Game 11:
[White "2271 Player"]
[Black "Me"]
{G/60}
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 d5 8. O-O Nf6 9. Qe2 Even though this move has been played a fair amount, my Taimanov books only cover 9. Re1 Be7 10. e5 Nd7 11. Qg4!  So I'm on my own now. 9... Be7 10. Bd2 O-O 11. Rae1 g6 I came up with a creative plan here. 12. Kh1 Rb8 13. b3 Rb4 14. e5 Nd7 15. Na4 Rh4 16. Bxa6 Re4 17. Be3 Rxe5  Anyway theory didn't play much role in this game; I was "out of book" on move 9 and came up with a creative Rook maneuvre that shaped the course of events on my own.

Game 12:
[White "2328 Player"]
[Black "Me"]
{40/90, G/60}
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nb5 d6 6. Bf4 e5 7. Be3 a6 8. N5c3 Nf6 9. Bg5 Be7 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. Bc4 I've never seen this move before; it's not in either of my books on the Taimanov.  Time to play chess. 11... O-O 12. O-O Be6 13. Nd2?! Bg5 14. Bd5 Rc8 15. a4 Qc7 16. Nb3? Nb4! 17. a5 Nxd5 18. exd5 Bd7 19. Ne4 Be7  So with the two Bishops against two Knights, a slight lead in development, and White having clogged up the d5-square with a pawn, Black is clearly better.  I still lost, though.  Anyway this game was kind of theoretical, but we were out of book on move 11 and general knowledge of Sicilian structures took over.  Neither side risked losing because they didn't know enough theory, and White had to make a series of mistakes before Black was actually better.

This took a long time to post; I hope it helps someone and you whiners actually start playing main lines and stop being afraid of theory!
« Last Edit: 12/16/10 at 17:03:15 by ErictheRed »  
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Zatara
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #238 - 12/16/10 at 06:10:19
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Tn's recomendations are in prior posts under the same subject.  you might need chessbase or get chess lite to read them.  You can down load chessbase lite on the chessbase.com website!  Also if you send TN a personal message he may send you the repertoire!!!  

Palliser's book is called beating unusual Openings.  

If you play the Tarrasch get Aagaard's book on the tarrasch called Meeting 1.d4.  You may also play KID.  It is move order proof ie you play it vs 1.d4 , 1.c4 and Nf3 whithout issues like in Leningrad Dutch if you play 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 is strong like Magnus Carlson played vs Dolmatov.  If you do play KID definatly play 1...e5, this way you get open positions time and then pawn structure lessons as well.  Plus John Watson recommended it as a possiblily in his Mastering the chess openings volume 4.  A good compromise would definatly be Nimzo indian and Bogo indian!!!  actually that would be best!!!  Watson agrees.  You get good development and piece play!  And you can play it for life!!!!  hmmm I might play that too?!?!  Though I think Ragozin/Vienna would be sharper! 
Oh and John Watson also recommends open positions and 1.e4.  At the very least sharp positions.  He sounds a bit like Markovic.  Oh and he doesn't recommend sicilian till after you get open positions a good run. (BTW John Watson is a highly respected author and educator, if you didn't know who he is) 
Good night,
Zatara
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #237 - 12/16/10 at 05:44:25
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@Ztara > so play Torre or London vs d5 or better learn 2.c4.

Yes, if I stay with 1 d4 I'll probably go with 2 c4, still up in air a bit, but I think that's where I'm headed if I don't just hop back over to 1 e4.
   

>As black keep 1.e4 e5 in your rep.  Most people will recommend that.  

Seems to be the #1 recommendation for a defense. It's possible, though I hate to dance to whatever tune White is playing. I'll definitely consider it.


>Play open vs Ruy or Archangel/Moeller depending on if you like to attack play Archangel if you like more subdued play OPen.  I think the two knights is best as it usually gives you more open positions.   

I played the Archangel when I was younger. I suppose I could pick that up again. I'm not familiar with the Moeller, but I'll look it up, the 2 knights too.

So much to look at.

>Many will say play the Tarrasch.  Try it.  Or else stick with your slav and semil slav.  Because you can play that for life!  

The Tarrash is a possibility, lots of piece play and open lines, and play with the IQP. 

>vs everything else either play what Palliser recomends in his book about other things like 1.b3!  Oh yeah if you play slav vs 1.c4 remember they can play 2.e4 after your 1...c6!  But then gain even Mark Dvoretsky said he missed this transposition as black.  
I don;t know if this helped, just my 2 cents.
good luck,

Which book is that?

Also, where can I find TN's repertoire recommendations?

Thanks again. It's been a very long day so pardon me if I'm sounding loopy.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #236 - 12/16/10 at 03:27:04
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>Note that I'm not recommending avoiding theory or main lines when I suggest you need to dive in and start playing.  I'm suggesting you dive in and start playing main lines and learn as you go. 

Yes, I understood that that was what you meant. And I guess I have to agree. It's a point I've been leaning towards. As much as I complain about opening theory I've been edging towards main lines for a while now, giving up other defenses for the more mainstream Caro and Slav for example. Maybe I'm headed back to e5 though, I'm not entirely sure yet.

I really enjoy playing things like the London. The plans are relatively simple, and play is straight forward, and often bloody, despite the London's boring reputation. But if I really want to do this right in the good years I have left, then I suppose it's time to give up the openings of youth and pick up the main lines.

>Yermolinsky says the same thing in The Road to Chess Improvement.  

I remember hearing about this book, I'll look into ordering a copy.

>Pawn Structure Chess by Soltis

Reading that now.  There's also a series of pawn structure lectures at Chess.com where IM Daniel Rensch recommends the book and covers much of the same material. Those have been interesting. It's passive learning, but entertaining.

He makes an interesting point and one that echoes what you said about understanding. He reiterates the truism that pawns are the soul of the game, and the backbone of how opening theory is created and changed. He goes on to say lots more about why pawn structure is important and how to play various structures.  It's good stuff.

I also remember an old Chess Life column by Soltis where he talks about how he first came up with his opening repertoire. Rather than study openings he first studied pawn structures, IQP, caro-slav, etc. (I'm assuming that study lead to writing Pawn Structure Chess) and then based his openings on what he learned about pawn structure. He picked openings that lead to IQP positions for example, though I don't remember which side he was looking at it from. I'm probably wrong on the details as this was decades ago, but that's basically right.

>I honestly wonder about people who want to avoid opening theory--do they also want to avoid endgame theory?  Why not?  It's all the same in principle, isn't it?

Same in principle, but not the same in practice, as I see it. Endgames (and I do work on those also) are basically a known quantity at this point, fixed in place forever and unchanging (not entirely true, but mostly). Openings are completely the opposite. Openings change constantly, moving in and out of fashion as play and theory evolve. This has created an enormous body of sometimes contradictory theory that is in a constant state of flux. That can be both intimidating and frustrating (there's just so damn much of it). Right now Lasker's Defense to the QG seems to have hit an uptick in popularity. I played Lasker's 30 years ago in my local league but had it dismissed as passive trash by higher rated players, so I gave it up. Now here it is decades later, and it's being played at a very high level. Maybe I'm just too easily influenced.  Smiley

I'll stop rambling here except to say that if pawns truly are the soul of the game and the basis for play then it makes sense, as Soltis and Reinch say, to study pawn structures and how to play them first, and only then decide what lines I'm going to play. Which, I would suppose, leads me right back to main line openings, where I'm guessing pawn structures and their play are most clearly expressed.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #235 - 12/16/10 at 02:00:49
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Note that I'm not recommending avoiding theory or main lines when I suggest you need to dive in and start playing.  I'm suggesting you dive in and start playing main lines and learn as you go.  I'm not the only one to advocate this approach, Yermolinsky says the same thing in The Road to Chess Improvement.   

Note also that I put a high premium on understanding plans in different position types.  A good place to start is a book that I've recommended more than any other to class players: Pawn Structure Chess by Soltis.  If you read that book I'm convinced that you'll learn 99% of everything you need to play the Closed Sicilian, for instance, with either side up to at least 1800 level, and possibly 2000.  This is probably also true for the Open Sicilian, at least if you're content to stick to classical Be2, Be3, 0-0 setups as White.

Note also that I do think it's valid to worry a little about what main lines particularly suit you as a player.  That is absolutely different from deciding to play a "system" or low-theory opening.  The best advice I can give hear is to critically examine your own games and decide what types of positions you like, and to listen to the advice of stronger players.   

Use your theory books as reference manuals and slowly learn the lines over years of development as a player.  I doubt you crammed hundreds of technical endgames into your head all at once; instead you read over them to get a general feel for what was going on and you go back every so often to refresh your understanding.  The same should be true with your openings.  Learning chess is a process, there is no shortcut, but there isn't any need to be afraid of the masses of information (theory) out there--whether opening, midddlegame, or endgame.  Just keep playing and learning, but don't dodge the question by playing a bunch of inferior moves, whether in the opening, middlegame, or endgame!   

I honestly wonder about people who want to avoid opening theory--do they also want to avoid endgame theory?  Why not?  It's all the same in principle, isn't it?  You're learning the best moves and plans from a given position on the board.  Do some of you think that Rook endings are just too sharp, you'll never be able to remember all the theory of them, so you just don't study them?  And then you strive at all costs to avoid getting a Rook ending in actualy play?  That's exactly how silly it sounds to me that you would try to avoid opening theory.

Anyway I'll post those games tonight or tomorrow (I have to work a little late).  I'm not trying to prove that knowing theory is unnecessary, rather that you don't need to know tons of theory to be successful as long as your understanding of chess in general is good (adjusted for your level of competition).  I'd also like to show that, for the majority of times, going "out of book" leads only to a slightly worse position than you would have gotten if you had played the "book" moves.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #234 - 12/16/10 at 01:43:15
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Carld: yeah definatly check out TN repertoire for white!!!  He, it seeems has put in a lot of work into it and has always been very helpful!!  IF you like the RUy then track down Mastering the Ruy Lopez by king and poinzetto.  Ok so some of the lines are crap.  Like the colle and Barry.  But you can play 1.d4 Nf3 move order to cut down on theory.  I am thinking of keeping the 150 attack, Play the petrosian vs QID, play c4, Nf3 Nc3 Bf4 system vs QG and g4 systems vs slav, and Russian system vs Grunfeld and Krasenkov vs KID.    the d4 Nf3 cuts out Benonis Benkos ect pretty well.  This would be my d4 repertoire and play TN's 1.e4 repertoire as white.  

TN: Maybe once TN does the Repertoires for black , for chesspublishing.com he may send me a copy!!!???
just some ides,
Zatara
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #233 - 12/16/10 at 00:40:06
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Straggler wrote on 12/15/10 at 12:35:17:
I'd like to pursue a little further the question of how to continue after the recommended 1.e4 e5. It seems to be agreed that a weak player should be aiming for something more active and less subtle than the closed Lopez. But what about 3.Bc4, which at my level is more common than the Lopez? Emms and Davies recommend the Two Knights, which gives Black an active game if White plays 4.Ng5 or 4.d4. But in my experience White usually plays 4.d3. In this case both Emms and Davies propose 4...Be7 - which, if White continues with c3, Nbd2 etc, leads to positions very similar to a closed Lopez! What do people think of this advice? Would it be better to play 4.d3 Bc5, with something closer to a classical Lopez?

A related question is why Black usually plays ...Be7 rather than ...Bc5 in the Lopez, whereas 3.Bc4 Be7 is regarded as somewhat passive. But, depending on the answer, that may be off-topic in this thread.


I have a very interesting system prepared against 4.d3 in my Repertoire for Chess Publishing. I can't reveal more but hopefully the wait will be worth it!  Smiley

Also, I don't think the Closed Spanish is as hard to learn as many players make it out to be. If you have a decent knowledge of the classics (pre-1980), you will already be familiar with most of White's and Black's plans in the Closed Spanish.
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #232 - 12/16/10 at 00:21:36
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Thanks for the replies. Some good information there.

@ErictheRed: Yes, I'd very much like to see some games against 2300s who don't play theory. I remember I played the Philidor Counter-Gambit in my very first game against a master (I was playing e5 at the time and thought "Well, why not?") I came out of the opening with an extra pawn and a decent position. He later won when I blundered away big material, no surprise there, but it was an interesting game anyway.

@Zatara I don't know that I'm all that concerned about openings really. I just want to make the right choice and stick with it.  I do have Summerscale's book, at least the older version, and a few more on those same lines. But, I keep reading, especially here, that those openings are garbage and no one should play them.

I wish I could buy Wells Tromp book, but the cheapest I've seen it is around $75 used. I've got Joe Gallagher's and Andy Soltis's books and videos by Plaskett, Hodgson and Lane (on the PTromp).

I did play the QG at one time, like I've played everything else at least a bit. But that takes me back into Cox territory and lots of Black defenses and new material to learn.

I must have missed TN's recommendations on what to play. I'll go have another look.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #231 - 12/15/10 at 23:34:23
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Carld: yes there is a lot to learn, this isn't checkers.  But that is part of the fun.  I think Ericthered is right I think we all "worry" about openings to much.  Even TN has asked for help!!  There are GM's that say they only got a real repertoire after they were IM's!!!!  And there are gms that play BOring/not theoretical openings, LIke Kamsky he plays your London system.  However he gets beat by Gelfand in his London and drew vs shabalov in a recent game (shabalov is 2600 and Kamsky is 2700 so kamsky should have one).  Main lines are main lines because they are good moves.   I think you should stick with 1.e4 as white.  Why cause most here will tell you to play sharp till about 2000 then you can add the English for example.  Keep your KIngs gambit, play Panov Botvinik vs caro, either 3.Nc3 or exchange vs French (check out Roman Dzindzchashvili's videos on U tube, that may be all you need), after that you can follow TN's white repertoire recommended below this post.  Oh and vs higher class players play TN recomendation of 5.d3 in the Ruy.  IF this is too much buy A killer chess repertoire by Summerscale.  It has your colle Barry and 150 attack.  Playing 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 isn't bad if you don't like the Barry attack.  Buy Peter Well's book on the Trompowsky. I wouldn't play 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5.  What is that bishop doing?  so play Torre or London vs d5 or better learn 2.c4.   

As black keep 1.e4 e5 in your rep.  Most people will recommend that.  Play open vs Ruy or Archangel/Moeller depending on if you like to attack play Archangel if you like more subdued play OPen.  I think the two knights is best as it usually gives you more open positions.   Many will say play the Tarrasch.  Try it.  Or else stick with your slav and semil slav.  Because you can play that for life!  vs everything else either play what Palliser recomends in his book about other things like 1.b3!  Oh yeah if you play slav vs 1.c4 remember they can play 2.e4 after your 1...c6!  But then gain even Mark Dvoretsky said he missed this transposition as black.   
I don;t know if this helped, just my 2 cents.
good luck,
Zatara
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #230 - 12/15/10 at 22:48:07
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I think many of you are putting way too much emphasis on the opening.  Sure, you should study the opening because it's part of chess, but it's only part and, moreover, probably not the most important aspect of chess.  Most people aren't losing many games because of their opening choices.

When people rated 1200-1800 complain about their being too much theory in certain openings, I just laugh.  When I look over my tournament games, I'm astounded at how little theory my opponents follow, even those rated above 2300.  I can post some examples later to show what I mean (I'm at work at the moment).  

The point is that yes, there might be a lot of theory in a certain line, but if you're rated 1600, who cares?  Do you really think your opponent is going to know all that theory?  Do people really think you need to know (memorize) all those lines in Cox's Starting Out: 1.d4 book?  Really??  

All you need to do is get a general overview of the ideas and then just dive in and start playing.  Your opponents are not going to have much of an advantage over you--trust me, they won't know all that scary theory, either.  Then, after you've played a game, go back and use those big theory books as references.  Compare your moves to the ones found in the opening books, figure out where you and your opponent could have played better, learn a little bit, and play the next game.  You acquire understanding over years of play.

Holy crap it's not so hard.  I honestly don't get all the people that whine about "theory."  I mean, there are some lines that are extremely sharp, but for the majority of main line openings you aren't going to be blown off the board because you don't know theory.  If you don't understand the ideas behind the moves you're playing, or the typical plans in the structures you get (IQP, hanging pawns, Closed Sicilian/English structure, Advance French Structure, the Caro/Slav families, etc.) you're going to get blown off the board.  But those aren't things you need to memorize "theory" to for.

Okay I'll settle down now.

Edit: I'll tell you what; I'm rated in the high 2100s, and I'll post the opening phases of all my last 12 games against players rated above me.  I think many people will be surprised to see how little "theory" is needed to play chess fairly well.  You do need understanding, however...
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #229 - 12/15/10 at 22:28:15
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I understand very much what you're saying about Cox's book. I would guess that it's great for its intended audience of young players who can go through a sort of total-immersion in chess, and come out of it much stronger. I doubt that works so well with older players. I don't think  we're that mentally flexible.

As with a lot of players, I *feel* like my chess knowledge is much better than my actual playing strength. That may be due to a lack of tactical training when I was young, with the resulting tendency to blunder and miss tactical opportunities. In one recent game I missed relatively simple tactical shots that would have won my opponent's Queen twice in one game.

I'm 50 (not 51 for six months), so I'm not retired just yet, but I do have some time to spend on chess. I also know that my life is to the point that if I'm ever going to be good at this game (for whatever measure of "good" you want to use), it's literally now or never.

I also liked the interview someone posted with Larry Kaufman and how he works as an older player, basically, just like the kids do. That's interesting, though I don't know if I could emulate that or not, maybe.

As to my level, I hit 1800 briefly back in 1995 and had dropped to 1731 by the time I quit playing tournament chess due to work and family about 2 years later. I have a feeling that my actual OTB playing strength has decayed significantly since then. I may, at this point, be no better than a 1300-1400, I'm really not sure. I've played a bit on FICS where my rating is Blitz: 1496 and Standard: 1986 (though that's only based on 3 games). Right now I'm subscribed to ICC, but I'd like to finally get my openings settled before I plunge back in to regular play. 

Regarding openings: I started out playing the King's Gambit at every opportunity, and answering e4 with e5. I don't remember now, why I drifted away from that (it was rather a lot of years ago). I think maybe it was always having to face the Sicilian, French, Caro-Kann, Modern and so on once people knew that I was a KG player. I used to win a lot of attacking games back then and people just kind of scattered away from playing e5 against me (good times).

I went through a long period of playing The Bird, which actually didn't work that well for me. I've since switched to the London and related lines, which has done better, but I'm not really sure that it offers White anything against the c5, Nc6, Qb6 sorts of lines.

I've looked at the Colle-Koltanowski a lot but haven't actually played it against a real live person. That's generally where I'm headed though, unless I do a U-Turn and head back into main lines. I've also dabbled in the Nimzo-Larsen, the Stonewall, the Colle-Zukertort, the Tromp & Pseudo-Tromp and most recently the English and the Hungarian (g3, Bg2, and then c4). That has a certain appeal to me as you can turn it around and play it as Black just as well. That's probably a symptom of my tendency to look for shortcuts in the opening. I could also see picking up the Tromp again, as it's nearly a mainline.

With Black I've been all over the place as well. As I said I started out as an e5 player, but have played the French (for a long time), the Sicilian Classical and Dragon (not usually very well), the Nimzovitch (my favorite. and what I'd always play if it weren't for the 2 Nf3 lines), and most recently the Caro-Kann and Modern.

Against d4 I played the English Defense for a long time, both the Dutch Classical and Stonewall,  the Modern here as well, and most recently the Slav/Semi-Slav, which I haven't done more than glance at and mostly play like a Black London or Colle.

That doesn't cover all the openings I've tried, but it probably hits most of them. I know I've tried and quickly discarded lots of others like the Benko Gambit, Benoni, and the Franco-Benoni. Now that I think of it, I also played 1... b6 against everything for ages. 

So, having read this whole thread I'm still in a quandary over what to play for openings, or if that even really matters at my depressingly low level. 
I read somewhere that strong players call people who change their openings constantly "perpetual novices." I think I'm probably the definition of that label. I just can't seem to stick with anything and my game has gone nowhere as a result.
  
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