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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Openings for adult class players (Read 182647 times)
Stigma
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #78 - 10/14/09 at 21:35:38
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nyoke wrote on 10/14/09 at 21:19:56:
The issue here is not that, I'm afraid.

In short : scientific inquiry seems to have established that 'chess proficiency' seems to follow the pattern of (acquiring) language proficiency

For this topic this is highly relevant as the ability to acquire a ("foreign") language seems to be at its peak at the age of three (yes, "3") and to peter out towards age 18.

Beyond that age the simple 'immersion' strategy does not yield any significant results any more, and other ('slower') strategies are called for.

What scientific inquiry is that? I would probably agree that chess, like language acquisition has a "critical period", within which learning is much more effficient and effortless. But it doesn't follow that the critical periods are exactly the same. I did a lot of pattern training around age 18-20, and the patterns I assimilated back then are still central to my chess understanding. But I have also used pattern training well into my 20s to good effect. If 18 is the right limiit it has to be a very smooth decline from then on.
  

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nyoke
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #77 - 10/14/09 at 21:19:56
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The issue here is not that, I'm afraid.

In short : scientific inquiry seems to have established that 'chess proficiency' seems to follow the pattern of (acquiring) language proficiency

For this topic this is highly relevant as the ability to acquire a ("foreign") language seems to be at its peak at the age of three (yes, "3") and to peter out towards age 18.

Beyond that age the simple 'immersion' strategy does not yield any significant results any more, and other ('slower') strategies are called for.

If that is the case (as it seems to be today) then to copyycat approach of 'immersion into tactical tabiyas' as put forward by MNB and Markovich is doomed to fail with adults.

Mind you : I do not have the slightest doubt about both gentleman's ability to work 'wonders' with the youths they coach. (I've spent enough time on this forum to know what they stand for and what they accomplish). But I do have serious doubts about the 'transponibility" of this labour of love towards adult 'pupils'.

  
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Antillian
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #76 - 10/14/09 at 20:01:39
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/14/09 at 19:01:02:
re brain growth:  My favorite author on the subject is Eric Kandel, whose work, In Search of Memory was an instant classic in the field.

Kandel and others have shown that the brain literally grows as it learns.  One of his students said "if you remember this tomorrow, you will have a different brain.


The brain is an amazing thing. There is so much we do not understand about the brain and learning. There was an interesting story on CNN just yesterday about persons who suffered strokes or  other types of brain damage and somehow they brains managed to rewire so that other parts of the were able to take over the functions previously performed by the damaged brain parts. There was also a story which I did not see about a woman who was born with half a brain and functioned quite well. (And no, it was not Sarah Pallin)
  

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Antillian
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #75 - 10/14/09 at 19:50:20
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I recently read a book called "Talent Is Overrated: What Really Separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else" 
by Geoff Colvin which advocates the view that the main determinant of success is  hard work and focused well designed practice. Here is a short article by the same writer:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/10/30/8391794/index....

I am not sure I am 100% convinced that talent is totally iirelevant, but I do believe it is certinaly much less of a factor than we tend to believe. I cannot think of any activity outside of chess in which I was unable to improve in when I really made the effort to - even as an adult. However, I can think of many areas in which I wish I could improve, but in all honesty, I am not prepared to put in the effort it will take.  

The issue I think with most adults is not that they cannot improve. It is that they are really not prepared to do what it takes. We have careers, spouses, kids, other interests. And before we deride such chess players, let's think of ourselves and our own many other pastimes in which we are mediocre. I play volleyball for fun occasionally. But I am a lousy player. I would love to get  better at it, but I am not prepared to do what it would take. Yeah, i might practice my serve now and then, but I know it will take a lot more than that to get much better. It is just not a priority. I am sure we all have similar pastimes where the same applies. The truth for most chess players is exactly that. 

So for such chess players, no point preaching about playing open games or the like. Let them play what they enjoy.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #74 - 10/14/09 at 19:01:02
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re brain growth:  My favorite author on the subject is Eric Kandel, whose work, In Search of Memory was an instant classic in the field.

Kandel and others have shown that the brain literally grows as it learns.  One of his students said "if you remember this tomorrow, you will have a different brain.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #73 - 10/14/09 at 19:00:03
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Straggler wrote on 10/14/09 at 18:27:43:

I suspect that people who are weak after a few years' playing rarely become much stronger. If that is the case, there is no point in such people playing the sort of chess that might make them stronger if they had the capacity to improve.
 
Whether there is potential for improvement also depends on what kind of training has already been tried! For example, if someone has never played through a good general middlegame book, never studied the games of the world champions, never studied a good endgame book like Dvoretsky's and most crucially, never gone through a tactics training course several times (etc. etc.) you can't conclude that further improvement is impossible. Time and dedication are more likely limitiatons, and improvement is invariably slower for adults than for children.

Straggler wrote on 10/14/09 at 18:27:43:
Stigma, where does Rowson write about having to unlearn bad habits? I seem to recall him saying that adults rarely improve much at all, but perhaps his message is less pessimistic than that.


Rowson's comments on unlearning are in part 1 (and mainly in chapter 1) of "Chess for Zebras". His solution to the problem of adult improvement there is learning by doing; developing skill by solving difficult problems during play and training. Though I actually think he goes too far in downplaying the value of adding knowledge.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Straggler
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #72 - 10/14/09 at 18:27:43
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Markovich wrote on 10/14/09 at 15:14:57:
Well when you teach algebra to adults who are weak in mathematics, you do it in pretty much the same way you teach it to 7th graders.  Likewise a foreign language.  Likewise most other things that I can think of.  It may not be as easy for an adult to learn as for a child, but the instructional procedures are usually quite similar.  Teaching 65-year-olds to pole vault might require some significantly revised instructional methods, but I don't think that chess is such a case.

I agree that if a weak adult player is going to improve, he will probably improve by doing the same things that a child would be advised to do (i.e. playing open positions etc). My query is whether anyone has actually succeeded in helping adults to make much improvement in this way. I suspect that people who are weak after a few years' playing rarely become much stronger. If that is the case, there is no point in such people playing the sort of chess that might make them stronger if they had the capacity to improve. Their best bet is to try to avoid the sort of positions in which their weaknesses represent the biggest liability (i.e., probably, sharp positions). As Nigel Davies (an experienced coach of adult players) says, "A man's got to know his limitations." 

Stigma, where does Rowson write about having to unlearn bad habits? I seem to recall him saying that adults rarely improve much at all, but perhaps his message is less pessimistic than that.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #71 - 10/14/09 at 17:07:23
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Rowson also wrote about bad habits that must be unlearned before adults can make progress. He's probably right, but it can be painful because it means many will have to get worse (short-term) before they can get better (long-term). Silman similarly wrote that many amateurs are "skilled in their mediocrity"; they have a mastery of their own approch to chess even though that approach is not optimal and is likely holding them back.

I'm interested in that literature on brain growth Bowen; do you have any good references? 

I read some comments on the internet that by being very focused and intense in the learning situation, adults can to a large extent close the gap between childhood and adult learning. On that view, the inefficient learning of adults is partly because we're so used to doing things on auto-pilot, conserving energy. Sadly I didn't write down the references for that point.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #70 - 10/14/09 at 16:43:53
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I have been an educator since the early 80's, 11 years also teaching chess to people of all ages, 18 years teaching high school English and ESL to adults.

Yes, adults can learn, neural pathways can be developed in people at any age. I have picked up some computer skills and learn more every day, I started Taekwondo at age 50 and made slow, but steady progress, the slow part has nothing to do with the brain but the body's inflexibility. I have been working on new openings but especially trying to revamp my style of play from tactical to more positional, I have also been dabbling in Italian. By challenging your brain in new areas growth is a natural outcome. There is a great deal of current literature on the subject and a little searching should turn up some fascinating material.

Any lack of growth in adults usually comes about by bad habits from the past and a work and family schedule that leaves insufficient time for study or playing.
  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #69 - 10/14/09 at 16:18:09
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One major fallacy is the notion that everyone can improve and that improvement is a natural thing that only has to be pursued in proper fashion to be achieved.

Like music and higher mathematics, not everyone has a neural network in their brain that can be programmed for chess, regardless of methodology.  Without the genetic predisposition to reach higher levels of any pursuit, one will not reach the higher level, regardless of coach or coaching methods.

Thus coaches and their methods often end up gaining far too much credit for something that would usually happen in the natural order of events anyway.

As for helping adults improve, that is the easiest money to pick from the tree as adults will not improve very much at all in chess, regardless of methodology employed.





  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #68 - 10/14/09 at 15:14:57
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Straggler wrote on 10/14/09 at 09:45:31:
Markovich wrote on 10/13/09 at 12:40:43:
We've been over this ground repeatedly in this forum, and it's fair to point out that particularly the more experienced and successful chess coaches here are broadly in agreement about this.

Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but which posters here are experienced and successful in helping adults to improve? Not adult beginners, but those who have been playing for years and are still quite weak.


Well when you teach algebra to adults who are weak in mathematics, you do it in pretty much the same way you teach it to 7th graders.  Likewise a foreign language.  Likewise most other things that I can think of.  It may not be as easy for an adult to learn as for a child, but the instructional procedures are usually quite similar.  Teaching 65-year-olds to pole vault might require some significantly revised instructional methods, but I don't think that chess is such a case.
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #67 - 10/14/09 at 12:49:00
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Straggler wrote on 10/14/09 at 09:45:31:

Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but which posters here are experienced and successful in helping adults to improve? Not adult beginners, but those who have been playing for years and are still quite weak.


Certainly not me, unless I can count myself in as my own "student"; as an adult (above 18) I have gained "1100 points in 11 years". Still I have some ideas. The first question to ask is how different training for stuck adults has to be from training for juniors. I think an emphasis on tactics, attacks and open positions can only do good even for adults if they have enough time to study. But this work will also involve time-consuming calculation training; switching to an active, attacking style if you still suck at calculation will not improve results! Even though I myself like to outplay my opponents positionally before opening the position, I often find lower-rated opponents (say, below 2000) completely at sea when it eventually gets tactical.

Maybe a less painful way for adults is to first work hard at tactics, calculation and attacking play, and only then switch to more open, active openings to take advantage of the newfound skills. For example I currently play 1.d4 almost exclusively, but I may take up 1.e4 more seriously again when I get through that stack of books on attacking play on my desk Smiley

Apart from the openings, I agree with Zatara that the one really indispensable path to improvement is tactics, tactics, tactics!
The notorious De la Maza plan works, the problem is that many of those who actually found time for it, got so exchausted that they lost motivation for chess. But I can't imagine an improvement plan either for myself or a student without a milder version of this. Tactics training has become so much easier with new computer programs that it's just irrationial not to try this if one really wants to improve.

Besides tactics and openings there are several other things I would try before giving up on self-improvement: studying general positional play, attacking play, endgame theory and strategic endgames. Most players can get a good idea of where their weaknesses lie if they take an honest look at their games (or show them to a coach). It's always sad to see players who throw away the scoresheets to their losses and only want to talk about their wins; they are making it so much harder for themselves. A systematic weakness in your game that you're honestly aware of is not a problem, it's an opportunity! I found two texts by Dan Heisman particularly inspirational in terms of facing up to one's weaknesses: Check out http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman54.pdf and http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman69.pdf

  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #66 - 10/14/09 at 11:32:43
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msiipola wrote on 10/12/09 at 15:05:55:
>

Often the answer to my often asked question is: If you ever want to become a good player, you have to play open games. Period!

But after 1.e4 e5 you will face several different second and lot of different third moves from white. The amount of variations is huge.
 


As LeeRoth said, I think the Petroff is a good compromise : it has less theory than the Ruy and its deviations, and is probably easier to understand. Besides, your opponents probably won't know much theory, so you'll both have to think early on your own. And there are lots of open positions with tactics, as well as some (rather balanced) endings.

If I'm not mistaken, Yusupov recommends it for students of the game.
  

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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #65 - 10/14/09 at 11:03:04
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Straggler wrote on 10/14/09 at 09:45:31:
Markovich wrote on 10/13/09 at 12:40:43:
We've been over this ground repeatedly in this forum, and it's fair to point out that particularly the more experienced and successful chess coaches here are broadly in agreement about this.

Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but which posters here are experienced and successful in helping adults to improve? Not adult beginners, but those who have been playing for years and are still quite weak.


Something tells me that their problems are not due to lack of openingknowledge  Grin

  
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Re: Openings for adult class players
Reply #64 - 10/14/09 at 09:45:31
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Markovich wrote on 10/13/09 at 12:40:43:
We've been over this ground repeatedly in this forum, and it's fair to point out that particularly the more experienced and successful chess coaches here are broadly in agreement about this.

Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but which posters here are experienced and successful in helping adults to improve? Not adult beginners, but those who have been playing for years and are still quite weak.
  
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