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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system (Read 17005 times)
Markovich
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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #17 - 12/01/09 at 12:52:53
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The point of my remark was not to establish that I knew more about chess than you, but that your notion that this gambit is in any way adequate for White suggests that you should work some more on your game.  It strikes me that even after hearing it from several relatively strong players, you still maintain that 2.b4 is a reasonable move.  Mere ignorance is to be forgiven, stubborn ignorance is not, and I have grown rather weary of the prevalence here of the latter.  Not only for that reason but on account of the utter worthlessness of this topic, I'm closing this thread.
  

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BirdBrain
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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #16 - 11/30/09 at 20:40:37
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Markovich wrote on 11/30/09 at 13:00:01:
BirdBrain wrote on 11/20/09 at 15:45:16:
I played it against my computer, and sure, in the beginning, the play was a bit awkward, but the pressure on the g7-square and generally across the diagonal - well, I gained the advantage after a while.  Of course, I don't claim that this is as good as a Ruy by any means.  This is also why I began to look into the Danish Gambit.  However, one key feature of essaying the Danish is that Black does not have to go into the lines with cxb2 Bxb2, but can short-change White's hopes earlier on.  With 2. b4, White may have a theoretically worse position, but he has definitely got the option of bishops on b2 and c4, raking the kingside, at the cost of a pawn, while in the meanwhile g7 is weakened. 


Yeah, and in several games against my little sister, I proved that 1...f5 is a fully viable defense to 1.e4.  But seriously, and I mean no personal disrespect, I don't think that you understand very much about chess.

This is really a joke topic.  I'm surprised, after a week away from this forum, to find that it's still at the top of 1.e4 e5.


As far as my understanding of chess versus yours, I am sure you are 100% correct.  I don't have a vast understanding of chess, and I felt compelled to show an idea that obviously has not received acclaim...and I don't blame chess players.  But the fact that the topic is still shooting around on here is that people are debating the idea.  There are plenty of ideas that are shot down all the time - I remember reading that Capablanca said the Sicilian Defense was full of holes...well, I guess maybe the modern players shot down his thoughts, or did they?   

I will never claim to be a high-ranking chess player in terms of deep thought.  But to give an idea a gander, and to see everyone's thoughts, even knowing that it may receive criticism, takes some courage.  I know that the first three comments I received were negative concerning the gambit, but I see that some players have given it a look, even some viewing 1. b4 games now!  So I don't think the post was a bad idea - I think it inspired some debate, and some thinking.  Now, if you consider it impractical, that is fine, and I fully respect your opinion.  I have read many of your posts and seen that you have a much better understanding of chess than me.  And I appreciate your honesty also.
From time to time, I may post a unique idea on here - it may be good, it may be bad...but at least I get some honest feedback!  Smiley  So thanks for that, guys!
  
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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #15 - 11/30/09 at 17:03:45
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SWJediknight wrote on 11/30/09 at 11:41:16:
How many players, when given the white pieces, would offer to take Black and then play a line like 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 b5?  After 3.Bxb5 the position after 1.e4 e5 2.b4 Bxb4 is reached, but with colours reversed.


Good point. I think Adolf Anderssen gave this line a punt a few times for Black in the year of 1856, it never really caught on though  Huh
  
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Markovich
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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #14 - 11/30/09 at 13:00:01
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BirdBrain wrote on 11/20/09 at 15:45:16:
I played it against my computer, and sure, in the beginning, the play was a bit awkward, but the pressure on the g7-square and generally across the diagonal - well, I gained the advantage after a while.  Of course, I don't claim that this is as good as a Ruy by any means.  This is also why I began to look into the Danish Gambit.  However, one key feature of essaying the Danish is that Black does not have to go into the lines with cxb2 Bxb2, but can short-change White's hopes earlier on.  With 2. b4, White may have a theoretically worse position, but he has definitely got the option of bishops on b2 and c4, raking the kingside, at the cost of a pawn, while in the meanwhile g7 is weakened. 


Yeah, and in several games against my little sister, I proved that 1...f5 is a fully viable defense to 1.e4.  But seriously, and I mean no personal disrespect, I don't think that you understand very much about chess.

This is really a joke topic.  I'm surprised, after a week away from this forum, to find that it's still at the top of 1.e4 e5.
  

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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #13 - 11/30/09 at 11:41:16
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1.e4 e5 2.b4 does indeed transpose to 1.b4 e5 2.e4.  The gambit leaves White a tempo down on the Evans Gambit and related lines, as a few others have mentioned- and since the viability of the Evans relies upon White's lead in development, that can't be good.

How many players, when given the white pieces, would offer to take Black and then play a line like 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 b5?  After 3.Bxb5 the position after 1.e4 e5 2.b4 Bxb4 is reached, but with colours reversed.
www.chesscafe.com/text/lane69.pdf
  
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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #12 - 11/30/09 at 10:07:14
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Gambit wrote on 11/30/09 at 08:16:30:
[Event "34th Olympiad"]
[Site "Istanbul TUR"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[White "Pavasovic,D"]
[Black "Wong Meng Kong"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2523"]
[BlackElo "2507"]
[ECO "C20"]
[Round "2"]

1. e4 e5 2. b4 a5 3. c3 h5 4. g4 hxg4 1-0

[Event "?"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1991.??.??"]
[White "Rover "]
[Black "Diener "]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Round "?"]

1. b4 e5 2. e4 Bxb4 3. c3 Be7 4. Qg4 g6 5. f4 Nf6 6. Qf3 exf4 7. Bc4 O-O 
8. d4 Nh5 9. Bxf4 Nxf4 10. Qxf4 Bg5 11. Qf3 Qe7 12. Ne2 Nc6 13. O-O d6 14. a4 Na5 
15. Ba2 Bd7 16. Bd5 c6 17. Ba2 Rae8 18. Na3 Qxe4 19. Ng3 Qxf3 20. gxf3 Bh3 21. Rfd1 d5 
22. c4 Re3 23. Nc2 Rc3 24. cxd5 Rxc2 25. dxc6 Be3+ 0-1

Event "?"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1985.??.??"]
[White "Sablatura,M "]
[Black "Gander,R "]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Round ""]

1. b4 e5 2. e4 Bxb4 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. c3 Ba5 5. Qb3 O-O 6. d3 c6 7. Ba3 d5 
8. exd5 cxd5 9. Bb5 a6 10. Ba4 b5 11. Bxb5 axb5 12. Bxf8 Qxf8 13. Qxb5 Bd7 14. Qb2 Qc5 
15. Ne2 e4 16. d4 Qd6 17. Qb4 Bxb4 0-1

[Event "?"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1984.??.??"]
[White "Mlynek,Zbigniew "]
[Black "NN "]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Round ""]

1. b4 e5 2. e4 Bxb4 3. Bc4 Qh4 4. Qf3 Nf6 5. Ne2 Qxe4 6. Qb3 d5 7. Bd3 Qxg2 
8. Rg1 Qxh2 9. Qxb4 e4 10. Bb5+ c6 11. Ba4 Na6 12. Qa3 b5 13. Bb3 Ng4 14. Rf1 h5 
15. Nbc3 Rh6 16. Bb2 Rf6 17. Nxe4 dxe4 18. Bxf6 Nxf6 19. O-O-O Qe5 20. c3 Nc5 21. Bc2 Bg4 
22. Rde1 a5 23. f4 exf3 24. Ng3 Nfe4 25. Nxe4 1-0

[Event "?"]
[Site "Carrasco"]
[Date "1921.??.??"]
[White "Loedel,Juan "]
[Black "Illa,Rolando "]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C20"]
[Round "6"]

1. e4 e5 2. b4 Bxb4 3. Bb2 Nc6 4. f4 d6 5. Qf3 Nf6 6. Bc4 O-O 7. fxe5 Nxe5 
8. Bxf7+ Nxf7 0-1



I found these  in the chesslab database. The first game looks fishy to me, while the second is a transposition from the Orangutan, 1 b4 e5 2 e4?!


I haven't had a close look at these games, but the opening moves suggest that 2.b4 belongs in the scrapheap. Loedel-Ilia was a rather embarrassing effort (read 'free point'), but other moves are also significantly better for Black.   

Next, please. Wink
  

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Gambit
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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #11 - 11/30/09 at 08:16:30
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[Event "34th Olympiad"]
[Site "Istanbul TUR"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[White "Pavasovic,D"]
[Black "Wong Meng Kong"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2523"]
[BlackElo "2507"]
[ECO "C20"]
[Round "2"]

1. e4 e5 2. b4 a5 3. c3 h5 4. g4 hxg4 1-0

[Event "?"]
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1991.??.??"]
[White "Rover "]
[Black "Diener "]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Round "?"]

1. b4 e5 2. e4 Bxb4 3. c3 Be7 4. Qg4 g6 5. f4 Nf6 6. Qf3 exf4 7. Bc4 O-O 
8. d4 Nh5 9. Bxf4 Nxf4 10. Qxf4 Bg5 11. Qf3 Qe7 12. Ne2 Nc6 13. O-O d6 14. a4 Na5 
15. Ba2 Bd7 16. Bd5 c6 17. Ba2 Rae8 18. Na3 Qxe4 19. Ng3 Qxf3 20. gxf3 Bh3 21. Rfd1 d5 
22. c4 Re3 23. Nc2 Rc3 24. cxd5 Rxc2 25. dxc6 Be3+ 0-1

Event "?"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1985.??.??"]
[White "Sablatura,M "]
[Black "Gander,R "]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Round ""]

1. b4 e5 2. e4 Bxb4 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. c3 Ba5 5. Qb3 O-O 6. d3 c6 7. Ba3 d5 
8. exd5 cxd5 9. Bb5 a6 10. Ba4 b5 11. Bxb5 axb5 12. Bxf8 Qxf8 13. Qxb5 Bd7 14. Qb2 Qc5 
15. Ne2 e4 16. d4 Qd6 17. Qb4 Bxb4 0-1

[Event "?"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1984.??.??"]
[White "Mlynek,Zbigniew "]
[Black "NN "]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Round ""]

1. b4 e5 2. e4 Bxb4 3. Bc4 Qh4 4. Qf3 Nf6 5. Ne2 Qxe4 6. Qb3 d5 7. Bd3 Qxg2 
8. Rg1 Qxh2 9. Qxb4 e4 10. Bb5+ c6 11. Ba4 Na6 12. Qa3 b5 13. Bb3 Ng4 14. Rf1 h5 
15. Nbc3 Rh6 16. Bb2 Rf6 17. Nxe4 dxe4 18. Bxf6 Nxf6 19. O-O-O Qe5 20. c3 Nc5 21. Bc2 Bg4 
22. Rde1 a5 23. f4 exf3 24. Ng3 Nfe4 25. Nxe4 1-0

[Event "?"]
[Site "Carrasco"]
[Date "1921.??.??"]
[White "Loedel,Juan "]
[Black "Illa,Rolando "]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C20"]
[Round "6"]

1. e4 e5 2. b4 Bxb4 3. Bb2 Nc6 4. f4 d6 5. Qf3 Nf6 6. Bc4 O-O 7. fxe5 Nxe5 
8. Bxf7+ Nxf7 0-1



I found these  in the chesslab database. The first game looks fishy to me, while the second is a transposition from the Orangutan, 1 b4 e5 2 e4?!
  
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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #10 - 11/28/09 at 01:13:43
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I thought this thread was about 1.e4 e5 2. ... Ooh look!  A unicorn!!  This is the first time I really thought Gambit was making a real contribution (very little compensation after 2.b4; move on, look somewhere else).  1/799 isn't all that bad.  Instead we fed the troll that wasn't and now we're talking about 1.f4 g5 in the wrong place.  The last useful comment here was Markovich's.  This is no gambit.  It's fun for a hack, but no one in their right mind would ever think to play this way for a serious, theoretical advantage.  Move on.  Even Gambit won't try this.
  

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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #9 - 11/20/09 at 15:45:16
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I played it against my computer, and sure, in the beginning, the play was a bit awkward, but the pressure on the g7-square and generally across the diagonal - well, I gained the advantage after a while.  Of course, I don't claim that this is as good as a Ruy by any means.  This is also why I began to look into the Danish Gambit.  However, one key feature of essaying the Danish is that Black does not have to go into the lines with cxb2 Bxb2, but can short-change White's hopes earlier on.  With 2. b4, White may have a theoretically worse position, but he has definitely got the option of bishops on b2 and c4, raking the kingside, at the cost of a pawn, while in the meanwhile g7 is weakened.
  
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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #8 - 11/19/09 at 19:32:23
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I thought I recalled that 4...Ng4 was strong, but right now I can't remember why.  I hope I'm thinking of the right position.  I'll be away for a week, but when I have the time I'll come back if I need to correct myself.

Oh yeah, after 4...Ng4, Black has the threat of 5...Ne3.
  

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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #7 - 11/19/09 at 19:16:02
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Markovich wrote on 11/19/09 at 13:47:16:


Black's best move is not 3...d6 but 3...Nf6!, after which White's game is crap, I opine.  I face this routinely against a Sokolsky fanatic on net-chess.com, and I've never failed to reach an excellent position with the black pieces.


I presume the idea is 4.fxe5 Ne4, with a sort of Fajarawicz gambit with extra tempos for black.  5.Nf3 would seem forced, and then it appears difficult for white to develop beyond that, particularly without the a3+b4 resource that is so common in the related fajarawicz.

Markovich, I appreciate any extra information as i had previously considered only 3...d6.  Thx as usual. Wink
  

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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #6 - 11/19/09 at 13:47:16
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Jupp53 wrote on 11/19/09 at 13:21:11:
1.b4 e5
2.Bb2 Bxb4
3.f4 d6
4.e4
is a well known gambit-line in the sokolski opening.  There are some games on GM level and between strong CC players in those days before engines started to be used. It's a good opening against greedy players and for giving the opportunity to get big-headed. The move order via 1.e4 e5 2.b4 Bxb4 3.Bb2 gives Black more choices now.
There were KGA lines with an early b4 after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 or 3.Bc4. Maybe you look at those too.


Black's best move is not 3...d6 but 3...Nf6!, after which White's game is crap, I opine.  I face this routinely against a Sokolsky fanatic on net-chess.com, and I've never failed to reach an excellent position with the black pieces.

  

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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #5 - 11/19/09 at 13:21:11
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1.b4 e5
2.Bb2 Bxb4
3.f4 d6
4.e4
is a well known gambit-line in the sokolski opening.  There are some games on GM level and between strong CC players in those days before engines started to be used. It's a good opening against greedy players and for giving the opportunity to get big-headed. The move order via 1.e4 e5 2.b4 Bxb4 3.Bb2 gives Black more choices now.
There were KGA lines with an early b4 after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 or 3.Bc4. Maybe you look at those too.
  

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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #4 - 11/03/09 at 19:53:16
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BirdBrain wrote on 11/03/09 at 14:47:12:

But I do believe it offers imbalanced chances, with the possibility of the White player getting some tactical shots in the mix, plus a nice strong pressure upon the center early.


No.  2.b4 is no good at all.  White sheds a pawn for zero comp; Black develops a piece and wins a pawn.  It produces unbalanced chances, all right; they are all on Black's side.  
  

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Re: 1. e4 e5 2. b4!? An interesting gambit system
Reply #3 - 11/03/09 at 17:45:29
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Yes, that would be worth a shot, I suppose...the Wing Gambit.  I thought it was a unique idea...I am sure unique, seeing two bad responses already!  Smiley  But then again, I have also seen reviews on setups such as this with b3 in the mix.
  
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