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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Openings as tool for learning? (Read 24277 times)
dfan
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #42 - 01/03/10 at 03:59:14
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 01/02/10 at 18:04:59:

I know of one teacher (FM strength) in my area who thought it was a wise idea to have a gambit or two in one's repertoire. Note that doesn't have to mean it is one's primary weapon. One can use it in blitz, or rapid. The idea was to get used to material imbalances (many players loathe shedding a mere pawn for any reason), with the initiative being an overriding factor than material. He taught players mostly in the 1400-2000 range (USCF).

This is pretty much the approach I've taken by playing the Two Knights - that's my one gambit. I recommend it for anyone else trying the "have exactly one gambit in your repertoire" approach.
  
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Sandman
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #41 - 01/03/10 at 03:04:45
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For some of you, answering questions from me and other club players below 2000 is probably like me teaching my 8 year old daughter. 
"Remember CCT - checks, captures, threats. Checks, captures threats, checks - - captures - - -"  "Why don't you listen to me? To find a move use checks captures threats checks captures ................"

I apologize to you.  Sad
« Last Edit: 01/03/10 at 18:45:19 by Sandman »  

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MNb
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #40 - 01/02/10 at 20:29:10
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 01/02/10 at 18:04:59:
msiipola wrote on 01/02/10 at 17:03:36:
Beginners should play open games. Does it also mean a beginner should or must play gambits?


I know of one teacher (FM strength) in my area who thought it was a wise idea to have a gambit or two in one's repertoire.


The plural is probably an exaggeration. Still I would like to refer to Spassky (again), who was advised to play one gambit (he choose the KG) in serious tournaments on a regular base. As SX already has pointed out it is an enormous advantage, certainly on amateur level, to have a good feel for the balance between material, activity and positional features.
  

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Seth_Xoma
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #39 - 01/02/10 at 18:04:59
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msiipola wrote on 01/02/10 at 17:03:36:
Beginners should play open games. Does it also mean a beginner should or must play gambits?

But I feel if I "give away" a pawn, I'm already have a less advantageous position, even I know I get a fast development. But if I can't convert it to a strong attack I'm I pawn down, for nothing.

For example I consider to play the Bishops opening. On move 3 you can play d4 instead of d3 and get the Urusov Gambit with a wild tactical play. Is 3.d3 too positional for a beginner?


I know of one teacher (FM strength) in my area who thought it was a wise idea to have a gambit or two in one's repertoire. Note that doesn't have to mean it is one's primary weapon. One can use it in blitz, or rapid. The idea was to get used to material imbalances (many players loathe shedding a mere pawn for any reason), with the initiative being an overriding factor than material. He taught players mostly in the 1400-2000 range (USCF).
  
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #38 - 01/02/10 at 17:03:36
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Beginners should play open games. Does it also mean a beginner should or must play gambits?

But I feel if I "give away" a pawn, I'm already have a less advantageous position, even I know I get a fast development. But if I can't convert it to a strong attack I'm I pawn down, for nothing.

For example I consider to play the Bishops opening. On move 3 you can play d4 instead of d3 and get the Urusov Gambit with a wild tactical play. Is 3.d3 too positional for a beginner?
  
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #37 - 01/01/10 at 22:50:49
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Markovich wrote on 12/31/09 at 17:34:24:
Though I respect him and almost always value his contributions here, I disagree with almost everything TN has had to say above.  If you read his advice, you see that it is quite good for a 2100+ player; play the Spanish; play main lines, and so on, and so forth.  But consistently, he seems to misunderstand that he's not talking to a 2150 player, but a 1500 player.  Either that, or he very mistakenly assumes that the same advice is applicable to players in both classes.

He says, "For anyone intending to reach 2700 level, it is absolutely essential to be able to play the Ruy Lopez and Open Sicilian as White and Black."  I have to yield to his apparent expertise in what it takes to make 2700, but so far as I am aware, you have to make 2200 before you make 2700.

For reasons that I have repeated innumerable times -- but which seem always to require repeating if low-rated visitors here are not to be left with bad advice -- players sub-2000 primarily need to learn (1) tactics, (2) theoretical endings (the ones with definite solutions) and (3) how to play open positions.  Again for the umpteenth time, the reason open positions are important is quite analogous to the reason that endings are important: a game of chess tends to produce them.  They are fundamental.  The object of play in very many closed or semi-closed positions is, precisely, how and under what conditions to open the game (all those ...f6 breaks in the French?  all those ...c5 breaks in the Caro? they are aimed at opening the position on favorable terms).  So if you can't play open positions well, you can't play chess well, and that is the long and the short of it.  Just the same, if you can't play king and pawn endings, what is the point of picking up a book on openings theory?  

A much stronger and more respected player than I, the esteemed Jakob Aagaard, was debating this and saying that many GM's aren't very good at play in open positions and some aren't even very good at tactics.  He may be right, but I think he means, relative to other GM's.  I respectfully maintain my view that to become a GM, an IM, an FM or even a humble USCF NM like me, you have to be able to conduct play in positions like those that arise from the Goering, the Danish, and the Blackmar-Diemer, as well as open positions of a less unbalanced kind like those arising from the Panov-Botvinnik, White's side of the QGA and Black's side of the Tarrasch.  You just have to be able to play like this because the play of any given game tends in this direction.  

So with the greatest respect, I think it is so much claptrap to tell a 1500-rated player to take up the main lines of the Spanish, which produce a semi-closed maneuvering game, play on both sides of the board, and the like, that is often way too sophisticated for players in this class.  Indeed it is claptrap to suggest that opening theory is important at all.  The point is precisely: not to study any more chess opening theory than an improving player needs to win his games.  Not to study theory! Not!!  So advice to study the main lines is a monumental pile of a proverbial substance, and it gets my freaking goat when this wretched advice is dished out and the innocent people receiving it come back and say, "Oh, thank you so much, I'm off to buy a book about the Spanish!"

These people aren't 1500-rated because they don't play the main lines of the Spanish, for crying out loud.  They're 1500-rated because they don't know how to play this game.

So please, young and developing chess players: play into open positions as much as you can, emphasize tactics and active piece play, and don't study any more theory than you need to win your games.  And don't ever make the mistake of thinking that the opening you played (assuming that it was reasonably sound) was the reason you lost any given game of chess; or that switching openings by itself will do anything for your game.

It is not often I entirely agree with you, but this one comes very close Grin

The only very minor quibble I have is that I find your poitn 3 too narrow, I would call it "working with inititiave", but yes the problems are often in the open positions (creating a plan, overlooking/creating threats etc.)
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Jupp53
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #36 - 01/01/10 at 22:12:33
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kylemeister wrote on 01/01/10 at 18:19:29:
Jupp53 wrote on 01/01/10 at 13:12:04:

Example 2: Last week a 45/45 online-game of mine with black started: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 and I was out of my 'personal book'. 4... Qb6 5.Bd3 and Chess Assistant 10 has 13 games so far in it's data base and the highest rated players are 2500+ for both sides. After my (dubious) try 5... c4 the data base is empty and in the following moves there's no coming back to any games. The task for me is now to understand the features of the position and the plans according to this features. Studying shortly the main variation of the Colle with black may be a by-product.


I've gotta say, there seems to be something odd about a 1900 player playing something like 4...Qb6 (tks-corrected, J.) plus 5...c4, and then trying to study it with a database.  To my mind, these are moves that such a player should be disinclined to play, just based on having studied Chernev/Reinfeld books or the like.
And what's the problem with 4... Qb6 in this position? If it fits to the topic an answer is worth while. Elsewhen, please forget it.
  

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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #35 - 01/01/10 at 21:26:23
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yeah, you may be right, but in any case I don`t think Benko is less tactical that the Tarrasch.
  
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #34 - 01/01/10 at 21:22:28
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I wouldn't think of the Benko as "a very tactical opening."
  
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #33 - 01/01/10 at 21:19:32
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And how about the Grunfeld? from my own experience the Grunfeld tends to produce live piece play right from the beginning and it doesn`t feel like typical closed opening at all. the amount of theory shouldn`t matter on the club level i think. and one can continue playing the Grunfeld for their lifetime.

another good possibility in my opinion would be to play the Benko, which is a very tactical opening. for all the move order subtleties and possibilities how to play against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 and the like it is enough to look at the games of Pogonina. interesting that Pogonina got to 2500 level just relying on the Dragon and Benko.
  
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #32 - 01/01/10 at 20:32:53
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For those who refuse to play the Tarrasch, I'd suggest the Budapest, which I think is fine for the club level.  You still need something against 2.Nf3.  Baltic, maybe, but those positions are semi-closed.
  

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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #31 - 01/01/10 at 18:19:29
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Jupp53 wrote on 01/01/10 at 13:12:04:

Example 2: Last week a 45/45 online-game of mine with black started: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 and I was out of my 'personal book'. 4... Qf6 5.Bd3 and Chess Assistant 10 has 13 games so far in it's data base and the highest rated players are 2500+ for both sides. After my (dubious) try 5... c4 the data base is empty and in the following moves there's no coming back to any games. The task for me is now to understand the features of the position and the plans according to this features. Studying shortly the main variation of the Colle with black may be a by-product.


I've gotta say, there seems to be something odd about a 1900 player playing something like 4...Qb6 (I guess that is what was meant) plus 5...c4, and then trying to study it with a database.  To my mind, these are moves that such a player should be disinclined to play, just based on having studied Chernev/Reinfeld books or the like.
  
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #30 - 01/01/10 at 15:14:02
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Jupp53 wrote on 01/01/10 at 13:12:04:
Markovich argues by the logic of the game. (There are discussions about this topic, but be careful, they are on IM-level and higher.)

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman02.pdf
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman04.pdf

Get those two article of Dan Heisman and read them carefully. Take them as material about the chess tool "thinking".


I would like to add: purchase Silman's The amateur's mind.
  

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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #29 - 01/01/10 at 14:55:48
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It seems to me that there is a difference between understanding a particular kind of position and being able to play that kind of position well. For example, I tend to do badly (with either colour) in the wild positions that typically arise from gambits. This is not because I don't understand what each of us should be trying to do. It is because I miscalculate what might happen while each of us is trying to do it. 

If you play, say, the London system, the position will indeed become open at some point, and you therefore need to understand open positions in order to play the London system well. You also need to be good at playing the sort of open positions that typically arise from the London system -- namely positions in which several pairs of pieces have already come off. But you don't need to be good at playing open positions with all the pieces still on the board, if you can find reasonable ways of avoiding that kind of position. 

TN wrote on 12/31/09 at 13:33:13:
Julian Hodgson was held back greatly in his career because of his reliance on the Trompowsky, an interesting but objectively inferior opening.

Indeed. If only he had played 2.c4, he would have scored much better than the crummy 74% he got with the Tromp.
  
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #28 - 01/01/10 at 13:12:04
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Markovich argues by the logic of the game. (There are discussions about this topic, but be careful, they are on IM-level and higher.)

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman02.pdf
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman04.pdf

Get those two article of Dan Heisman and read them carefully. Take them as material about the chess tool "thinking".

There are conscious and automatic thinking processes. On of the problems of lower rated players is the time they need for conscious thinking which is automatic thinking on higher levels. If you look at the question of this topic from this point of view it is obvious: Any opening can be a tool of learning if and only if the requirements for mastering (?; according to the actual level of play naturally) this opening is fitting to the requirements of learning at the actual level of strength the player has.

Example 1: My actual level is about 1900+ DWZ (German rating). There are loads of players with an rating of 1700-1800 that would kill me reguarlarly if I played the open sicilian against them. If I would take a trainer and he would tell me despite my 56 years to start playing the open sicilians and supervise my trials, then I would do. As I do the studies myself I will go through Khmelnitzki's book, as this seems to be the only serious diagnostical approach on the market and follow his and Heisman's (DeGroot's) advice. I never will follow someone, who doesn't know my games, if he tells me to play opening XYZ. I will seriously think about everyone's remarks (from 1400 on up) about his observations in my games.

Example 2: Last week a 45/45 online-game of mine with black started: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 and I was out of my 'personal book'. 4... Qb6 5.Bd3 and Chess Assistant 10 has 13 games so far in it's data base and the highest rated players are 2500+ for both sides. After my (dubious) try 5... c4 the data base is empty and in the following moves there's no coming back to any games. The task for me is now to understand the features of the position and the plans according to this features. Studying shortly the main variation of the Colle with black may be a by-product.
« Last Edit: 01/01/10 at 22:03:38 by Jupp53 »  

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