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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Openings as tool for learning? (Read 24260 times)
Stigma
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #57 - 01/12/11 at 00:42:49
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I recently started working with a talented kid who plays lots of wild, sharp lines including gambits, like the Morra and Milner-Barry gambits for white, the Schliemann and Albin for black. He played all these already; my standard recommendations would be a bit calmer. But as a result of our work I've taken a more positive view towards gambit play as a pedagogical tool.

For that repertoire to work of course he has to be a strong attacker and tactician, relatively speaking, and he is. 

This makes sense as a path of development since, as many have pointed out, it's easier to teach a tactical player strategy than the other way around. Besides the usual opponents below 1500 (and even below 2000) dislike defence and are not very good at it, so forcing the play is good for short-term results, and thus for motivation too! Of course, when and if he approaches 2000 I will recommend looking at more normal lines.
  

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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #56 - 01/11/11 at 21:30:21
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Markovich wrote on 01/04/10 at 13:42:23:
msiipola wrote on 01/02/10 at 17:03:36:
Beginners should play open games. Does it also mean a beginner should or must play gambits?

But I feel if I "give away" a pawn, I'm already have a less advantageous position, even I know I get a fast development. But if I can't convert it to a strong attack I'm I pawn down, for nothing.

For example I consider to play the Bishops opening. On move 3 you can play d4 instead of d3 and get the Urusov Gambit with a wild tactical play. Is 3.d3 too positional for a beginner?


I have no doubt that the best motivated of the 19th-Century gambits is the King's, and that is the one I would suggest you look at.  Or perhaps the Evans, but there you have to confront the Two Knights.  But the Goering or the Blackmar-Diemer would be fine as well.

But I would like to say again that playing certain openings is not something that will improve anyone's game.  What will improve a developing player's game is playing lots of open positions with emphasis on piece activity.  The choice of opening is merely a vehicle for that.  For the same reason, don't study more theory than you need to win your games.

Really, it's true that playing lots of chess in general, with any sort of position, is what improves your game.  But since open positions are fundamental, I recommend that developing players pay special attention to them.



Markovich, are you seriously recommending the BDG as an opening for amateur club players? I have no dreams of being 2700, 2500 or even 2200. I'd be happy to just reach the magical 2000 barrier.  I had never considered the BDG. 
  

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MNb
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #55 - 01/07/10 at 11:09:29
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pitbull wrote on 01/05/10 at 19:47:02:
I do get lost in open positions primarily because I never have enough time to process what I see. I admit that I mostly play blitz


If you want to prepare for the marathon it is not a good idea to daily sprint the 100 m. Your first step should be to play more games at a classical time control, ie the first 36 moves/1½ hour each.
At the other hand if you want to improve at blitz just concentrate on the openings you like most.
  

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Matemax
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #54 - 01/07/10 at 07:25:03
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Quote:
As I said above I do need to become more organized in my study

Why not make yourself a mindmap about your study goals and place it on your door? One thing to get organized is to empty your "RAM" in your brain but at the same moment have a reminding system. You might be free for chess studies and have less worries about anything else (which seems to hinder you at the moment).

Btw:
I feel very small to give good advice to someone with major impacts like "Katrina" and a car accident - fortunately my life has passed such things until now.
  
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pitbull
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #53 - 01/07/10 at 03:47:09
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thank you all for your comments.
Matemax as far as improving my personal skills I am restricted by some physical issues and medication which sedates me to make my situation worse.
Being a book hound I already have Moskalenko's book, Revolutionize  Your Chess but so far have only glanced at it. It looks complicated on first glance.
A training plan and goals would help. I am very scattered in my study.
I also know I need more slower games.
The above however were not the issues I was addressing ie the( possible) need to change ones rep. as one gets older and does a change to more closed, slower openings hinder whatever improvement is still possible ie. does one need to stick to more open games to have hopes of getting better (still). This would seem to relate to tactics. I suppose one could study and improve other aspects such as strategy endings etc.

Jupp53- I have never analyzed one of my slow games. As I note I currently rarely play these.
I was displaced by Hurricane Katrina and at the same time lost my chess coach.
I had little time for much chess for quite a while.
I then was in a major auto accident and I am left with physical problems and a need for medication. One positive is that I have lots of time for chess now Smiley
I am quite certain that I blunder a lot in all phases of my game.
As I said above I do need to become more organized in my study and try for longer games.

Sharpplay- I am sure that good blitz players were good slow players first and that it doesn't work the other way.
I am sure there are a lot more like us. The only other options are to quit chess or to die Smiley
I agree slower play does help.
I waver however as to whether one must go from the open Sicilian and Ruy Lopez to the closed Sicilian and the Italian
  
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sharpplay
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #52 - 01/06/10 at 17:00:53
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Pitbull, I am in my fifties and your messages could have been written by me (i.e. I have the same issues and questions).  I suspect that some comfort in the open games is probably essential to becoming good at chess for the reasons Markovich constantly stresses.  Perhaps the real issue here is that you are focusing on blitz time controls.  At our age, we may have to accept that our reactions and mental speed are not what they once were.  Probably a more important difference between  us and really good blitz players is just the volume of play and the ability for instant pattern recognition.  To some extent at slower time controls we can negate this by taking the time to figure things out on our own.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #51 - 01/06/10 at 10:28:02
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Probably there are some common misconceptions around here about age, learning, personal skills which are popular but without any controlled empirical support.

"Slow thinking" and "reaction time" are very different topics and it is hard to give global advice in this context. And the context is important!

@pitbull: I'm 56 and know about the problems and advantages of learning in this age by literature too. 

This topic is about chess. So I want to ask a question to you (and anyone else who has an answer at hand):
- If you ever analyzed your slow games with an engine: How many mistakes do you make per game evaluated by the engine with pawn value of 1.0+.

My slow game level on FICS is 2100, DWZ is 1900. I play seldom slow games. I will count it for myself next days over ten games. My estimate is between one and two mistakes of this level (= blunders) per game.

With 1500 you're an average player and the number of blunders per game should be higher. If this is true, what are openings important for in your case?

1. You should play openings letting you blunder less and giving your same level opponents a higher chance of blundering.
2. If you want to learn something you should play openings fitting to your learning goals.
3. The openings should be fun.

This is not the usual tactics, tactics, tactics even if there's some truth in this. It's more going from goal to procedure. An uncle told me you have to relearn once more for every ten years you got older. At least around 60 this seems to be a fitting estimate to me. So it's more important than ever to use the personal knowledge about yourself. No one knows your strength and weaknesses as good as you do.

Look at yourself honestly. What are your goals for the next three month in chess? What are your long term goals? Take the opening as a tool and look at it only and only beyond this point of view.
  

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Matemax
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #50 - 01/06/10 at 08:07:56
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Quote:

Perhaps we are stuck needing the skills only open positions can provide but unable to perform well because of slowed thinking and reaction time and memory.

As I said I vacillate still as to what I should to and hope other opinions may help guide or convince me.

Victor Moskalenko shows 3 important categories for an improving chess player:

1) chess skills
2) personal skills
3) evaluation of the position (solved by his "5 touchstones")

So find out where you need to improve. "Slow thinking" and "reaction time" certainly belong to "personal skills" and therefore you can improve them without chess. Maybe you can join a specific training group somewhere where those personal skills (which you need in your everyday life!) are trained.

For your chess skills you have to devide into: opening, middlegame and endgame. Make yourself a list about your knowledge (which is your chess skill) in each part and try to estimate how strong/weak you are in that part.

Based on chess skills and personal skills you could give yourself a training plan with the aim to bring all your skills on a certain level - e.g. "I want to deepen my understanding of the Open Games, their strategic value and their inherent tactics. Additionally I want to have a look at specific endgames". At this point it would be good if you get advice from an experienced and stronger player to help you to choose the rigth material, books, games etc.

Finally with improving your skills you have to become better at evaluating positions - Moskalenko's "Touchstones" is a nice and simple method. On the other hand I think the book is too advanced for you at the moment (concerning your rating). But there may be other Chesspubers around here who can recommend easier books to you.

Finally you have to subscribe to Chesspublishing - because in your case you get all those "roadmaps" of the openings you need to play and you get top-class comments on the games. Even if it will be difficult to understand all that stuff, it will be a motiviation for you in the right direction.

And finally - how do you know, you have improved? Van Wely said, that he recognized his opponents played weaker at some point but then realized that it is the other way round: he had become stronger. Therefore look out for your oppenents and your results against them (also in Internetchess).

All the best for your chess!
  
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #49 - 01/06/10 at 02:19:33
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Thanks for taking the time to respond.I have a vague discomfort when I play the open games.There are several reasons I can identify. 
1)it's easy to get lost in the thicket of variations that comprise openings like the open Sicilians and the Ruy Lopez. One might say and believe me I have, you're only 1500 what's the difference but I study and I'm compulsive by nature so I like to get it "right"
2)Frequently its not the positions but the fact that I am slower taking in the position and deciding whats required leading to my always being behind or losing on time or making a bad move which might be a lost piece or lead to a lost piece that's the problem. This is partly my mediocre chess skills and partly age related.
3) If it's good for my chess skills I will do it is what I have been operating under. This is like taking medicine that might not taste good to make you get better.
I'm not sure at this time that this is still true for me

My main question is this: There has been general agreement on this board that training and practice in open positions is necessary for low rated players to improve( I realize from comments you have made that you don't agree with this).
These statements have always been made with the tacit assumption that the individual involved is a student or a younger person but is this true for the older person.
I am sure I am no the only one here who is older, not high rated but still interested in getting better.
What should we do specifically about the openings we play knowing that the opening isn't important but rather the middle game it leads to.
I know that tactics and end games remain important.

Perhaps we are stuck needing the skills only open positions can provide but unable to perform well because of slowed thinking and reaction time and memory.

As I said I vacillate still as to what I should to and hope other opinions may help guide or convince me.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #48 - 01/05/10 at 23:05:14
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@pitbull

If you don't like your repertoire then change it. If you're not comfortable with the positions you get, either learn to play them better (which is what you say you've been trying), or find something that suits your tastes better.

What's the point of learning something if you still don't enjoy the positions? That's like volunteering for charity work that you hate.

Look at some games in various openings/variations, see if you find something where you feel like you could see yourself playing/enjoying it, and go from there. 

Whatever it is, you need to be enthusiastic about it.
  

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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #47 - 01/05/10 at 19:47:02
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I have a related question that I don't believe has been covered in some time.
What are the recommendations/suggestions for the older chess player.By that I mean about 60 years old.
Every chess player no matter what his rating and I suspect his age wants to get better Why else play.
Suggestions I see appear to be largely aimed at younger players (or maybe not!)
Ziegler begins his DVD on the French by stating that he changed from the Sicilian at least partly because of age and difficulty with memory.
I note that Larry Kaufman has changed his repertoire and and plays D4 and the French (at least in games I have seen published)

To be more specific I am approaching 60. I have approximately a USCF rating of 1500. Several years ago, motivated by what I read on ChessPub. I switched from d4c4 white and the French and NID/QID/Cat to e4e5 from both sides along with the same NID/QID/CAT.
It has never felt right for me, not any of it both I have continued because I want to improve. I have of course worked on tactics/endgame ( but not as much as I should Smiley
I now have plenty of time.
Should I persevere with my current repertoire or change?

I vacillate between changing to the French again and to the slav while from the white side playing e4 but differently ie. c3 Sicilian instead of open Sicilian, Italian instead of Ruy Lopez etc or even going back to d4.

I have improved some with time-nothing dramatic.

I realize at my age there are no big changes to be had.
I do get lost in open positions primarily because I never have enough time to process what I see. I admit that I mostly play blitz (but at least toward the slower end)
I am of two minds. Sometimes I feel I should persevere. Other times I feel it's ridiculous to do so. The openings have never seemed right to me.But then I feel like I am giving up on getting better if I go to a series of closed or semi closed openings such as I have mentioned.

I would be interested in anyone's take on this but I also feel it has universal interest. We are all getting older and will face what I face ie. a slower brain and will then have to choose whether to continue what they have been playing or switch.The experience of older players is welcome especially those even older
  
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #46 - 01/04/10 at 22:20:25
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Markovich wrote on 01/04/10 at 13:42:23:
Likewise when people say, "I have no success with the Tarrasch," what I hear is "I can't play with the IQP very well."

Then what will you hear if someone says "I have no success with the Tarrasch, but I do with the Danish- and Morra Gambit Declined (3...d5 in both cases)"? That was the case with me some 25 years ago.
Of course I agree that any ambitious patzer should also include some variations with and against the IQP in his/her repertoire.
  

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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #45 - 01/04/10 at 13:42:23
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msiipola wrote on 01/02/10 at 17:03:36:
Beginners should play open games. Does it also mean a beginner should or must play gambits?

But I feel if I "give away" a pawn, I'm already have a less advantageous position, even I know I get a fast development. But if I can't convert it to a strong attack I'm I pawn down, for nothing.

For example I consider to play the Bishops opening. On move 3 you can play d4 instead of d3 and get the Urusov Gambit with a wild tactical play. Is 3.d3 too positional for a beginner?


3.d3 doesn't really produce an open game.  I am not quite sure how anyone can play chess and not be willing to offer a pawn in exchange for activity.  Sometimes it just has to happen.  But I could understand someone having qualms about playing the Goering, which probably doesn't offer completely full compensation.  If you fall into that category I would suggest the Scotch or the Scotch Four Knights (play the Four Knights, then play 4.d4).  Or yes, the Urusov.

Beyond that I would suggest your qualms about playing gambits may indicate a weak spot in your game, and that deliberately playing some gambits would be a good way to patch it up.  Likewise when people say, "I have no success with the Tarrasch," what I hear is "I can't play with the IQP very well."

I have no doubt that the best motivated of the 19th-Century gambits is the King's, and that is the one I would suggest you look at.  Or perhaps the Evans, but there you have to confront the Two Knights.  But the Goering or the Blackmar-Diemer would be fine as well.

But I would like to say again that playing certain openings is not something that will improve anyone's game.  What will improve a developing player's game is playing lots of open positions with emphasis on piece activity.  The choice of opening is merely a vehicle for that.  For the same reason, don't study more theory than you need to win your games.

Really, it's true that playing lots of chess in general, with any sort of position, is what improves your game.  But since open positions are fundamental, I recommend that developing players pay special attention to them.
  

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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #44 - 01/04/10 at 10:16:43
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I would also like to add my 0.02$. All purely subjective, of course.
theRomantic wrote on 12/30/09 at 06:35:35:
Is it worth playing openings you hate, or score very poorly with, in order to improve your chess?

a) Hate? Definitely not! If you hate an opening make sure you don't (have to) play it. It's very important to get positions you feel comfortable with. Even a slight disadvantage is no problem if you get a variation you are fond of and you know you handle well.
b) You score poorly with? Hard to say. IMHO there are enough alternatives. Just play something else.


Quote:
I do have a mind to keep playing mainline French, as I think it's important to learn how to play pawn chains.  And I can appreciate the point of learning the Tarrasch.  But I'm starting to question how much benefit I'm really deriving from some of these repertoire choices.  If the focal point of my chess career was a tournament six months from now, I'd switch to the Grunfeld/KID and play 2.b3 vs the French, no question.  These just fit my personality better (I like to attack) and I think are much more practical.  I would strongly consider ditching the Maroczy Bind as well.

My goal is to get to 2000 ICC, I've been plateauing at 1500-1600 for a while now.

First of all, you say you are an aggressive player. The Maroczy is purely positional. Get rid of it ASAP. 
I see 3 options for the rest:
1) Pragmatism. Replace all low performance main lines by decent sidelines leading to positions you like. For example the exchange CK or a carefully chosen 3.Nd2 sideline against the FR. This will both drastically reduce the workload, reduce the risk and get you out of the opening with a playable position. Then expand your opening repertoire from there.
2) Find your openings for the next 10 years and switch now. This one is self-explaining. Move away from everything you don't like or you don't want to stick to. Identify the openings you are most comfortable with, buy a Starting Out (or equivalent) book for each. Work through them, play a lot of games and look the variations up later. Your short term results will probably suffer until you understand the new openings. After that you'll be more happy than ever before.
3) Combine both. Fix a couple of problems, replace an opening or two and make sure to narrow the repertoire down until you understand everything reasonably well. Then expand from there.

As already said by others, the most important thing for people below 2000 is tactics. The solution here is trivial: Just get a good book explaining tactics. Then register at one of the free tactics training sites and burn through 10-20 random puzzles per day.

GM Rowson writes (either in The 7 Deadly Chess Sins or on Chess for Zebras) that often the main problem for players trying and failing to improve is not knowledge but implementation. Following that it's probably a good idea to focus on stuff you can actually use, and then practice it to get familiar with it. So you should consider narrowing your repertoire down.
  
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Re: Openings as tool for learning?
Reply #43 - 01/03/10 at 12:34:57
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Interesting advice. But pawn sacrifices abound so much in modern openings, that I would be surprised if any chess player did not have at least two or three lines involving pawn sacrifices in his/her repertoire.
  

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