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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Norwegian Ruy Lopez (Read 8776 times)
BobbyDigital80
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #14 - 01/17/10 at 02:46:00
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MNb wrote on 01/10/10 at 11:33:08:
11...bxa4 is consequent after 10...Rb8. The second move you give for White is already questionable. I can't help thinking of Silman's essential question: what kind of fantastic thing does 13.f3 for White's postion? Nothing, it makes it worse. Pawn e4 does not need this protection thanks to White's 11th.
So 11...bxa4 12.Rxa4 Nf6 13.Re1 Be7 14.Nc3 and White has an edge due to Black's weaker pawn formation.
Your suggestion of 13.f3 makes suspect that you are relying to heavily on silicon analysis - a grave sin on every chess level (I am only 1800 otb).


Well, f3 is the most logical move there because it consolidates the position with a static edge. Eventually it will probably be necessary anyways since where else does White intend to put the bishop but on e3? Black will probably play Be7, 0-0, Re8 and exert pressure on the center. What is White's plan in the position after 13. Re1 Be7 14. Nc3 0-0?

  
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MNb
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #13 - 01/10/10 at 11:33:08
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11...bxa4 is consequent after 10...Rb8. The second move you give for White is already questionable. I can't help thinking of Silman's essential question: what kind of fantastic thing does 13.f3 for White's postion? Nothing, it makes it worse. Pawn e4 does not need this protection thanks to White's 11th.
So 11...bxa4 12.Rxa4 Nf6 13.Re1 Be7 14.Nc3 and White has an edge due to Black's weaker pawn formation.
Your suggestion of 13.f3 makes suspect that you are relying to heavily on silicon analysis - a grave sin on every chess level (I am only 1800 otb).
  

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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #12 - 01/09/10 at 13:19:32
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Hm okay it does appear that line you gave gives white a small edge. Instead though, I suggest 11...bxa4 12.Rxa4 Nf6 13.f3 Be7 14.Nc3 0-0 which seems playable. Black has the possibility of getting in ...d5. His pieces are active and he has the two bishops, which counts for something.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #11 - 01/09/10 at 11:46:04
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It would appear I claimed an advantage for white in line b also. And posted a proposed line for discussion. Of course Bobby completely ignores this. Therefore I will be taking no further part in this discussion.

The ghost of Sloughter, perhaps?
  

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MNb
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #10 - 01/08/10 at 22:22:34
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I claim an advantage for White in line b - because Black hasn't castled yet (weakness 1), a pawn on b5 that needs protection (weakness 2) and faces the prospect of a white rook invading via a7 (weakness 3). Note further that ...Nf6 always will be met with e4-e5, which might lead to weakness 4: problems with development.
Black might solve 2 or 3 of these problems, but not all.

You are probably right about line 1.
  

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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #9 - 01/08/10 at 22:15:07
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MNb wrote on 01/07/10 at 02:56:27:
BobbyDigital80 wrote on 01/06/10 at 09:56:06:
Did you ever consider that maybe Mamedyarov, Tkachiev, and Safarli might have a point and your 50 year old ancient and stereotypical assessments might not be entirely viable now?

And you complain about others being hostile? There are few people with less stereotypal assessments on this side than CE. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are correct though.
A few ideas for White after 10...Rb8:
a) 11.Re1 Nf6 12.e5 and Black's King is in danger of being stuck in the centre.
b) 11.a4 Be7 12.axb5 axb5 13.Qe2 like Savon-Mueller, Halle 1974.
c) 11.Na5 Ba8 12.c4 Nf6 13.Qe2 Be7 suggests indeed that 10...Rb8 is relatively better than 10...Rc8. Compare Spraggett-Castro Rojas, Cali 2007.
Black has no problems you say? You might take look at the lines from White's perspective as well. If not you are the one suffering from stereotypes.

In line (a) 11...Nf6 isn't forced. Be7 could be played first. But even in that line so what if Black's King is stuck in the center? What can white do in that position?
And for line (b) who would claim White is better there? Black is extremely solid and doesn't have any clear weaknesses. A lot of these lines black gets the two bishops.
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #8 - 01/07/10 at 12:00:03
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[quoteMamedyarov, Tkachiev, and Safarli are playing the Norwegian, and their assessments are based on an extremely deep understanding of the variations. 9.Bd2 is not the main move, as you claim. 9.c4 is the main move. Anyway, Black has no proplems after 9.Bd2 Nxb3 10.Nxb3 Rb8! (reserving a8 for the bishop, making Na5 pretty pointless). Did you ever consider that maybe Mamedyarov, Tkachiev, and Safarli might have a point and your 50 year old ancient and stereotypical assessments might not be entirely viable now? [/quote]

Ouch. It always amuses me when someone moans about the hostility of others, when their tone towards other people is nothing but hostile.

I went solely from the point of view of the databases that I have looked at, where 9.Bd2 has been played more than 9.c4, despite the advocation of the latter move by several recent works. I do not claim to be an expert on these lines, nor do I claim to know the actual assessments given by Greet et al., but it is always amusing to have my opinions labelled as stereotypical.

As for the players named... Carlsen and Ivanchuk played the Alekhine at the highest levels. Does that mean they knew something everyone else did, and that the Alekhine is the strongest defence to 1.e4? Or does it mean that by playing something less-travelled at that level, they were more likely to have a theoretical edge, despite the actual merits of the system. Sadly, Mamedyarov doesn't post here, so it is impossible to get his actual feelings... but I would opine that he has not played this often, and certainly it is not his main choice in important games, so I would suggest his faith in it is more based on the considerations of surprise and relative validity in blitz.

For what it's worth, I agree with MNb's second line, 11.a4 Be7 12.ab ab 13.Qe2 Qd7 14.e5 and white is better. White's pieces are better, I opine. His Ra1 is on the open file, the e-file will become open and black might well not have the rights to castle. Black may well have the dynamic advantage of the two bishops, but at the moment his position is not dynamic, and this is only a visual advantage.

Perhaps the game may continue something like 14...dxe5 (what else?) 15.Qxe5 f6 16.Qe2 Qc6 17.Qg4 Qxc2 18.Nd4! (Not 18.Re1 Qxb3 19.Qxg7 Qc2!, ensnaring the queen and setting up a vicious attack) Qe4 19.Qxe4 Bxe4 20.Re1 f5 21. Nc3 - white has more than enough compensation for his pawn and can retreive it whenever he wishes, he will almost certainly also take away black's two bishop advantage. His pieces are far more active, with his rook primed to come into a7 in the next few moves. Enough to win? Perhaps not... but white is pretty comfortable here. And this is just one such line. Black may be surviving, and I have never claimed that this is unsound... however "black has no problems", after a two move variation, is absolute nonsense.

If you propose improvements for black, or interesting ideas, I will be happy to respond, as I always am. If there is any further hostility then I will not, as it is not worth my time arguing with you.
  

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ghenghisclown
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #7 - 01/07/10 at 11:44:13
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 01/06/10 at 09:56:06:
Mamedyarov, Tkachiev, and Safarli are playing the Norwegian, and their assessments are based on an extremely deep understanding of the variations. 9.Bd2 is not the main move, as you claim. 9.c4 is the main move. Anyway, Black has no proplems after 9.Bd2 Nxb3 10.Nxb3 Rb8! (reserving a8 for the bishop, making Na5 pretty pointless). Did you ever consider that maybe Mamedyarov, Tkachiev, and Safarli might have a point and your 50 year old ancient and stereotypical assessments might not be entirely viable now?




This doesn't sound hostile to me. Although I agree with the overall verdict that the Norwegian is just good for White.
  

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MNb
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #6 - 01/07/10 at 02:56:27
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 01/06/10 at 09:56:06:
Did you ever consider that maybe Mamedyarov, Tkachiev, and Safarli might have a point and your 50 year old ancient and stereotypical assessments might not be entirely viable now?

And you complain about others being hostile? There are few people with less stereotypal assessments on this side than CE. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are correct though.
A few ideas for White after 10...Rb8:
a) 11.Re1 Nf6 12.e5 and Black's King is in danger of being stuck in the centre.
b) 11.a4 Be7 12.axb5 axb5 13.Qe2 like Savon-Mueller, Halle 1974.
c) 11.Na5 Ba8 12.c4 Nf6 13.Qe2 Be7 suggests indeed that 10...Rb8 is relatively better than 10...Rc8. Compare Spraggett-Castro Rojas, Cali 2007.
Black has no problems you say? You might take look at the lines from White's perspective as well. If not you are the one suffering from stereotypes.
  

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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #5 - 01/06/10 at 10:25:27
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 01/06/10 at 09:56:06:
CraigEvans wrote on 01/03/10 at 21:24:32:
I was under the impression that 9.Bd2 was the main line, and in my database it scores heavily in white's favour.

I agree with Bibs, further, that the comment "The fact that Nxe5 isn't even a threat basically proves that ...Na5 should be okay for black. " is far too simplistic and doesn't consider any other factors in the position. White has moved the bishop three times, due to black making weakening moves. Are you really saying that moving your only developed piece for a second time, in order to move it a third time to exchange off a white piece which you have expended tempi and weakened your queenside chasing, seems like the most reasonable plan? White gets a lead in development, a presence in the centre, and can always target black's weakened queenside in the future.

Yes, you're right. The Norwegian is a fantastic variation. A host of GMs are entirely wrong in their assessment, and you are correct and showing the world the way.

Perhaps, if you read back your original post's tone, you will see why your comment causes a little disbelief, if not hostility.


Mamedyarov, Tkachiev, and Safarli are playing the Norwegian, and their assessments are based on an extremely deep understanding of the variations. 9.Bd2 is not the main move, as you claim. 9.c4 is the main move. Anyway, Black has no proplems after 9.Bd2 Nxb3 10.Nxb3 Rb8! (reserving a8 for the bishop, making Na5 pretty pointless). Did you ever consider that maybe Mamedyarov, Tkachiev, and Safarli might have a point and your 50 year old ancient and stereotypical assessments might not be entirely viable now?


Has Mamedyarov played this outside blitz games?

Anyway, unless Leko plays an opening, I wouldn't attach to much importance to names to proof the viability. That being said: perhaps there is more to it then you would say. I think it could be a good variation for clubplayers that can handle the bishoppair. Not my cup of tea, though.
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #4 - 01/06/10 at 09:56:06
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CraigEvans wrote on 01/03/10 at 21:24:32:
I was under the impression that 9.Bd2 was the main line, and in my database it scores heavily in white's favour.

I agree with Bibs, further, that the comment "The fact that Nxe5 isn't even a threat basically proves that ...Na5 should be okay for black. " is far too simplistic and doesn't consider any other factors in the position. White has moved the bishop three times, due to black making weakening moves. Are you really saying that moving your only developed piece for a second time, in order to move it a third time to exchange off a white piece which you have expended tempi and weakened your queenside chasing, seems like the most reasonable plan? White gets a lead in development, a presence in the centre, and can always target black's weakened queenside in the future.

Yes, you're right. The Norwegian is a fantastic variation. A host of GMs are entirely wrong in their assessment, and you are correct and showing the world the way.

Perhaps, if you read back your original post's tone, you will see why your comment causes a little disbelief, if not hostility.


Mamedyarov, Tkachiev, and Safarli are playing the Norwegian, and their assessments are based on an extremely deep understanding of the variations. 9.Bd2 is not the main move, as you claim. 9.c4 is the main move. Anyway, Black has no proplems after 9.Bd2 Nxb3 10.Nxb3 Rb8! (reserving a8 for the bishop, making Na5 pretty pointless). Did you ever consider that maybe Mamedyarov, Tkachiev, and Safarli might have a point and your 50 year old ancient and stereotypical assessments might not be entirely viable now?
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #3 - 01/03/10 at 21:24:32
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I was under the impression that 9.Bd2 was the main line, and in my database it scores heavily in white's favour.

I agree with Bibs, further, that the comment "The fact that Nxe5 isn't even a threat basically proves that ...Na5 should be okay for black. " is far too simplistic and doesn't consider any other factors in the position. White has moved the bishop three times, due to black making weakening moves. Are you really saying that moving your only developed piece for a second time, in order to move it a third time to exchange off a white piece which you have expended tempi and weakened your queenside chasing, seems like the most reasonable plan? White gets a lead in development, a presence in the centre, and can always target black's weakened queenside in the future.

Yes, you're right. The Norwegian is a fantastic variation. A host of GMs are entirely wrong in their assessment, and you are correct and showing the world the way.

Perhaps, if you read back your original post's tone, you will see why your comment causes a little disbelief, if not hostility.
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #2 - 01/03/10 at 09:38:26
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Bibs wrote on 01/03/10 at 03:55:39:
Perhaps oversimplifying a little (again). Not as bad as it looks, but recent texts suggests 'tis better for white.

Analysis? Or just crass generalisations?

Improving on e.g. El Khalif? Greet? Then it can be discussed...



Hm...I have no idea why you're being so hostile, but here's an improvement. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 b5 5. Bb3 Na5 6. O-O d6 7. d4 exd4 8.
Nxd4 Bb7 9. c4 c5 10. Nf5 g6 11. Ng3 h5! 11...h5 is better than 11...Bg7, which was given by both Khalifman and Andrew Greet. The positions can resemble a Benoni and are fine for black.
  
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Re: Norwegian Ruy Lopez
Reply #1 - 01/03/10 at 03:55:39
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Perhaps oversimplifying a little (again). Not as bad as it looks, but recent texts suggests 'tis better for white.

Analysis? Or just crass generalisations?

Improving on e.g. El Khalif? Greet? Then it can be discussed...

  
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BobbyDigital80
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Norwegian Ruy Lopez
01/03/10 at 03:29:01
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The Norwegian variation of the Ruy Lopez is severely underrated. (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 b5 5.Bb3 Na5). The best move here isn't 6.Nxe5 so why shouldn't black play ...Na5? The fact that Nxe5 isn't even a threat basically proves that ...Na5 should be okay for black.
  
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