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Normal Topic Clsassical KID 9. Ne1, 11.Rf7!? (Read 5747 times)
BPaulsen
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Re: Classical KID 9. Ne1, 11.Rf7!?
Reply #7 - 01/18/10 at 18:45:58
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 01/18/10 at 17:31:00:
Girkassa wrote on 01/18/10 at 12:03:30:
Yeah, I don't know why Black would prefer facing Rc1 rather than Aronian's line....11...Rf7 could be a sneaky semi-waiting move. ...


As both you and BPaulsen have pointed out, there doesn't seem to be much to wait for since it seems that Black's best is to transpose back to the main line.

I wonder tho, is 10.Nd3 better than 10.Be3, or is it just another option?  Back in the 1970s, Taimanov played both systems.


Theory is always moving around, but as of right now 10. Nd3 has the upper hand theoretically in a couple of lines, whereas with 10. Be3 black isn't worse in the critical tries (13. Rc1, 13. a4).
  
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Re: Classical KID 9. Ne1, 11.Rf7!?
Reply #6 - 01/18/10 at 17:31:00
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Girkassa wrote on 01/18/10 at 12:03:30:
Yeah, I don't know why Black would prefer facing Rc1 rather than Aronian's line....11...Rf7 could be a sneaky semi-waiting move. ...


As both you and BPaulsen have pointed out, there doesn't seem to be much to wait for since it seems that Black's best is to transpose back to the main line.

I wonder tho, is 10.Nd3 better than 10.Be3, or is it just another option?  Back in the 1970s, Taimanov played both systems.
  
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Re: Clsassical KID 9. Ne1, 11.Rf7!?
Reply #5 - 01/18/10 at 12:03:30
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Yeah, I don't know why Black would prefer facing Rc1 rather than Aronian's line. However, if Black is more afraid of that line (after all, Aronian must have chosen it for a reason), 11...Rf7 could be a sneaky semi-waiting move. If White insists, perhaps 12.Qc2!? is a possible answer, aiming to transpose after 12...Nf6 13.f3 f4 14.c5 g5 15.cxd6 cxd6 16.Nf2 Ng6 17.Rfc1.
  
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Re: Clsassical KID 9. Ne1, 11.Rf7!?
Reply #4 - 01/13/10 at 20:30:54
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topandkas wrote on 01/13/10 at 17:13:15:
Hi! Yes, I agree that f3 is by no means forced but the whole point is that if White plays for instance Rc1 then Black can continue Nf6 and f4 and he has already avoided lines we saw in Aronian-Nakamura, which is what I originally wanted to. If Rc1 then Nd1 as played in Aronian-Nakamura is probably no good anymore. 
Do you guys think that Rc1 is the way to "punish" Rf7!? I would have thought there would be other reasons why this move isnt usually played!??


If the continuation is 11...Rf7 12. Rc1 Nf6 13. f3 f4 14. c5 the game transposes into a main line where black is struggling after 14...g5 15. Nb5. The line Aronian used is definitely not the only line black has issues in currently.

The move doesn't actually do anything to trip up white, or force him into sub-optimal lines, hence why it isn't played.
  
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Re: Clsassical KID 9. Ne1, 11.Rf7!?
Reply #3 - 01/13/10 at 17:13:15
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Hi! Yes, I agree that f3 is by no means forced but the whole point is that if White plays for instance Rc1 then Black can continue Nf6 and f4 and he has already avoided lines we saw in Aronian-Nakamura, which is what I originally wanted to. If Rc1 then Nd1 as played in Aronian-Nakamura is probably no good anymore. 
Do you guys think that Rc1 is the way to "punish" Rf7!? I would have thought there would be other reasons why this move isnt usually played!??
  
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Re: Clsassical KID 9. Ne1, 11.Rf7!?
Reply #2 - 01/13/10 at 12:44:38
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Against 11...Rf7 simply something like 12. Rc1 will generally put the question to black as to whether he has something more useful than 12...Nf6 heading back into main lines.

On a similar note a line that's generally used dismissed as bad is more interesting than often given credit, namely 11...f4.

It's assumed that 12. Bg4 is += just by virtue of it being something black usually shouldn't allow, but continuations like 12...g5 13. Rc1 Rf6 14. f3 Rg6 15. Be1 Nf6 16. Bxc8 Rxc8 17. c5 g4 provide black decent counterplay. Obviously white's moves weren't forced, but it's just an example and although black's beloved light-squared bishop gets traded, he has a much more active R than usual.

Food for thought for those that don't want to run into any of the main lines black has been struggling in, even if it still should leave white a little better.
  
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Re: Clsassical KID 9. Ne1, 11.Rf7!?
Reply #1 - 01/13/10 at 10:38:23
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[Event "7th World Team Championship"]
[Site "Bursa TUR"]
[Date "2010.01.12"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Aronian, L."]
[Black "Nakamura, Hi"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E98"]
[WhiteElo "2781"]
[BlackElo "2708"]
[PlyCount "105"]
[EventDate "2010.01.05"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4. Nc3 d6 5. e4 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5
Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. cxd6 cxd6 15. Nf2
Ng6 16. Qc2 Rf7 17. Rfc1 Ne8 18. a4 h5 19. Ncd1 Bf8 20. Ra3 a6 21. Qc3 Bd7 22.
Qa5 b6 23. Qb4 Rg7 24. Rac3 Nh4 25. h3 Be7 26. Be1 Qb8 27. Kf1 Bd8 28. Rb3 Bc7
29. Qa3 Qd8 30. Rbc3 Bb8 31. b4 Ra7 32. Rc6 b5 33. axb5 axb5 34. Ra6 Rb7 35.
Rcc6 Bxc6 36. dxc6 Ra7 37. Nc3 d5 38. Nxd5 Nf5 39. exf5 Qxd5 40. Ne4 Rgc7 41.
Nxg5 Ng7 42. Rb6 Nxf5 43. Rxb8+ Kg7 44. Qb2 Ra2 45. Qb1 Rc2 46. Rxb5 Qd6 47.
Rb7 Kh6 48. Kg1 Qxc6 49. Nf7+ Rxf7 50. Rxf7 Ne3 51. Ra7 Qd5 52. Qa1 Nxg2 53.
Qa6+ 1-0

As to your suggestion of 11...Rf7, I don`t see why white should have any reason for playing 12.f3 or exf. My first thought is  that white should go on with business on the queenside.
  
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Clsassical KID 9. Ne1, 11.Rf7!?
01/13/10 at 07:05:46
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Hi forum members,

I was wondering if any of you have any thoughts on 11...Rf7 in the classical 9.Ne1 line (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2 Rf7!?

I dont see any obvious reasons as to why this should be bad (but the again Im merely a mortal patzer). One of the main ideas is so to avoid what happened for instance yesterday in the game Aronian-Nakamura, where White played a quick c5 and steamrolled Black's Queenside. I think Black should be OK both in case of 12.e.xf5 and 12.f4
On 12.f3 Ive been looking at 12...Bf6!? Here the idea is to leave Nd7 for the time being and instead shuffle Black peaces around placing the Queen on f8 and quickly place the bishop on d8.  
One possible continuation could be 12.f3 Bf6!? 13.b4 and now I can't see why both 13...c6 or maybe even 13....f4 shouldn't be viable options.
My analysis obvioysly goes a little deeper than this KID's are really hard to analyze so I would like to hear your comments.
  
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