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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox (Read 179226 times)
TalJechin
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #140 - 06/25/11 at 10:16:01
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Surely, the best move order for Black is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 and 3.Nc3 Bb4. A very simple and common move order trick, but hard to cover for a repertoire book on one opening. Consistency can really be a straight-jacket sometimes.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #139 - 06/25/11 at 10:03:00
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/25/11 at 04:12:45:
I am always amused when I read that 3...Be7 is the consensus best move. It's interesting that the vast majority of players, from Alapin through Aronian, play 3...Nf6 more often than 3...Be7. 

As Mednis patiently explained once, 3...Be7 isn't better than 3...Nf6, it's different. It may stop some White variations, but it allows others. 3...Be7 was one of Karpov's favorite variations, but it is not actually better than 3...Nf6.


I am pretty sure that 3. ... Be7 is regarded as better. Which one of the top players today play the old 3. ... Nf6 these days? You mentioned Aronian I could only find a single game of his back in 2004 (!) where he played the knight move. In the recent candidate matches against Grischuk he employed 3. ... Be7, twice. Not to mention that Karpov and Kasparov both avoided the knight move with Black and QGD was played very often in their matches.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #138 - 06/25/11 at 04:12:45
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I am always amused when I read that 3...Be7 is the consensus best move. It's interesting that the vast majority of players, from Alapin through Aronian, play 3...Nf6 more often than 3...Be7. 

As Mednis patiently explained once, 3...Be7 isn't better than 3...Nf6, it's different. It may stop some White variations, but it allows others. 3...Be7 was one of Karpov's favorite variations, but it is not actually better than 3...Nf6.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #137 - 06/24/11 at 21:29:35
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IMJohnCox wrote on 06/24/11 at 12:13:12:
F22; you're right about the statistics, but I don't think they're brilliant in the main lines with Nge2 and f3 either. I'm surprised the ...Nh5 line in general would be so drawish; it seems to me the play there is rich enough. The gxf6 line is an endgame line and I agree wouldn't necessarily suit everyone, with either colour. I just found it interesting myself. I fear the truth may be that there isn't a reply to the Exchange variation that would suit everyone.


Of course I understand that it is a question of taste as well. But I thought the consensus was that Petrosian's 3. ... Be7 was superior to 3. ... Nf6. The main line I think is 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bf4 and here both 5. ... Nf6 and 5. ... c6 were extensively tested by Karpov and Kasparov in their matches.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #136 - 06/24/11 at 12:18:14
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Pantu - hah! Exactly the kind of question books on the QGD always avoid. I'm afraid mine isn't any exception either. I just vaguely feel that luft 'must' be more important than whatever weakness ...h6 creates, and am fortified by the fact 'everyone' seems to agree. But it's hard to give concrete lines to prove it, for sure.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #135 - 06/24/11 at 12:13:12
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Thanks, Daniel, for the playable pgn. I was looking briefly at that last night; I was playing 24...a5, which also seemed to be OK. But you're right, I'm afraid, that I should have mentioned this. Presumably 18...Rxe8 19 Rxe8 Rb8 is also OK, or did Vitiugov miss a trick?

F22; you're right about the statistics, but I don't think they're brilliant in the main lines with Nge2 and f3 either. I'm surprised the ...Nh5 line in general would be so drawish; it seems to me the play there is rich enough. The gxf6 line is an endgame line and I agree wouldn't necessarily suit everyone, with either colour. I just found it interesting myself. I fear the truth may be that there isn't a reply to the Exchange variation that would suit everyone.

  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #134 - 06/24/11 at 10:52:09
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Well, that's why most strong players would only play ...d5 after 3 Nf3, no? Nc3 exchange is no fun at all for Black.

The book looks great from the excerpt. The lines may not be my cup of tea, but it's just a good chess education, by the looks of it.
  

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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #133 - 06/24/11 at 10:16:44
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I am very surprised about the repertoire that is presented for exchange variation. Both variations are extremely passive for Black:

Out of more than 30 games Black never won after: 1. d4 e6 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. Qc2 Be7 7. e3 Nbd7 8. Bd3 Nh5 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. O-O-O Nb6 11. h3. 

And after 1. d4 e6 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Bf5 7. Qf3 Bg6 8. Bxf6 Qxf6 9. Qxf6 gxf6 there are only 3 wins for Black out of some seventy odd games.

Granted this is QGD not Najdorf and draws are the norm. But in both lines the White win percentage is also big.  I will be curious to see what readers who are regular posters here have to say about the book.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #132 - 06/24/11 at 07:38:16
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@Daniel: Yes, it looks like of those "dangerous if you haven't seen it" lines.  Thanks for the warning!

@IMJohnCox: If black is going for the ...e5 lines anyway (transposing to the so-called Capablanca System with an extra ...h6) is there a particular reason that can't just play 6...Ne4 avoiding all this ...h6, Bxf6 stuff?  I wondered this question once and checked all the books I could find and no one had a clear answer to this (except transposing to the Capablanca System which they thought was good for white).

I generally understood that the whole point of the Lasker with ...h6 was to be able to play 13...b6 (which has a concrete issue with a hanging h7.)  I tried to find another line to exploit the omission as I was looking at the Anti-Tartakower but didn't find anything concrete.

And another thing - all sources I have for the Tartakower without ...h6 (including Sadler, I think) give 6...b6 7 cxd5! Nxd5 8 Bxe7 Qxe7 9 Nxd5 exd5 10 Rc1 Be6 11 Qa4 c5 12 Qa3 Rc8 13 Bb5 a6 following an old Petrosian game.  Put the pawn on h6 and the same people tell you 13...Qb7! (Timman-Geller) is at least fine for black.  13...a6 is another famous game entirely... 

Here I think white has to adjust his move order with 6...b6 7 Rc1!? Bb7 8 cxd5.

P.S. I've also long been of the opinion that the ...Nh5 line in the exchange has been underrated and is black's most practical option.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #131 - 06/23/11 at 23:41:57
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IMJohnCox wrote on 06/23/11 at 20:28:40:
I can't open that attachment, Daniel, so forgive me if I'm missing your point, but as long as Black doesn't fall for 18...Be6? 19 Rxe6 etc., and instead plays 18...Bd7, why does 18 Re8 achieve anything in particular?

I was going to go for the Alatortsev, particularly in an over-ambitious period when I was aiming to give more than one repertoire choice against each White system, especially following Vaganian's example. In the end though I just decided I liked the systems I did give better; the ...Nh5 one in particular I think is much easier to play than conventional Exchange positions.


I don't know if 18. Re8 Bd7 19. R8e7 Ne6 20. Rf7 leads to an advantage or not but white seems to have enough for the exchange and it could very unpleasant to face over the board.  I've posted it with the web PGN viewer

Hmm, I think I will have to buy this book to see the coverage of the Nh5 line.

  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #130 - 06/23/11 at 23:03:42
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IMJohnCox wrote on 06/23/11 at 20:28:40:
I can't open that attachment, Daniel, so forgive me if I'm missing your point, but as long as Black doesn't fall for 18...Be6? 19 Rxe6 etc., and instead plays 18...Bd7, why does 18 Re8 achieve anything in particular?

I can open the file and Daniel gives 19.R8e7 Ne6 20.Rxf7. I haven't checked this.
The chapter on the Lasker looks very good, IM Cox. As I have decided to take up the Tartakower I will have to buy your book.
  

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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #129 - 06/23/11 at 21:28:43
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Quote:

5) In the excerpt I noted some Radjabov-Kramnik, Kazan 2011 references so it is up to date as of then.

I'm impressed.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #128 - 06/23/11 at 20:28:40
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I can't open that attachment, Daniel, so forgive me if I'm missing your point, but as long as Black doesn't fall for 18...Be6? 19 Rxe6 etc., and instead plays 18...Bd7, why does 18 Re8 achieve anything in particular?

I was going to go for the Alatortsev, particularly in an over-ambitious period when I was aiming to give more than one repertoire choice against each White system, especially following Vaganian's example. In the end though I just decided I liked the systems I did give better; the ...Nh5 one in particular I think is much easier to play than conventional Exchange positions.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #127 - 06/23/11 at 01:02:21
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I'm surprised he didn't go for the Alartortsev

Interesting, he seems to think the opposite of the conventional wisdom that h6 is detrimental to e5 breaks in the Queen's Gambit Decline.  He recommends the Lasker with 13... e5 instead of the more common b6.

He also appears to have missed the rather dangerous continuation of 13...e5 14. Bb3 exd4 15. exd4 Rd8 16. Re1 Qd6 17. Rce3 Nf8 18. Re8!

I've attached a pgn file with some analysis.
« Last Edit: 06/23/11 at 02:39:02 by Daniel »  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #126 - 06/22/11 at 14:44:55
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