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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox (Read 179316 times)
fling
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #170 - 06/28/11 at 17:31:37
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I am really interested in the book, "despite" 3 ...Nf6.

OT: Interestingly, Nakamura chose 3 ...Be7, and lost against Carlsen. And then Carlsen did not repeat the line in the later games. Any thoughts on this?
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #169 - 06/28/11 at 15:25:30
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Does anyone ever play every single recommended line in a repertoire book, anyway?  If someone wants to play 3...Be7 instead of 3...Nf6, I'm sure they'll still find 75% of this book useful.  Do a little work for yourself, wow.

Also, I'm really sick of people levelling criticism at books before they're even released.  I mean come on, maybe John found some really interesting new ideas in the 3...Nf6 exchange.  Can't we at least wait until we see the book before we start pissing and moaning about his choice?

This book will cover 3...Nf6.  At best it will be the definitive work from Black's POV (at least for a few years), and at worst you can just do a little of your own research on 3...Be7.  If you're only interested in 3...Be7, don't buy the book.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #168 - 06/28/11 at 14:11:49
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F22 wrote on 06/28/11 at 08:40:35:
TalJechin wrote on 06/25/11 at 10:16:01:
Surely, the best move order for Black is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 and 3.Nc3 Bb4. A very simple and common move order trick, but hard to cover for a repertoire book on one opening. Consistency can really be a straight-jacket sometimes.


The NID move order means you have to learn a lot more theory: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 and now White has a very wide variety of choices: 4. Qc2, 4.a3-4.f3, 4. e3, 4.g3, 4. Nf3, 4. Bg5. On the other hand you can pick a single variation for Black in exchange variation: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bf4 Nf6 6. e3 Bf5 7. Qb3. My guess is the theory of this line (called the Ubilava line) is much less than any of White's responses to NID.


Theoretically, I think Black should score better with the move order I give, although it's of course more to learn. That's the price you pay for counter play. 

Your Be7 may be solid, but White is basically playing for two results, that's the price of avoiding theory in favour of something easy to learn.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #167 - 06/28/11 at 12:43:15
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I can understand that some people will be disappointed I didn't give 3...Be7; if I were a buyer I might feel that way myself. I intended to at the beginning, but I make it a rule only to write about lines that interest me and that I'd play myself, and the more I looked at it the less I liked 3...Be7 and the more I got interested in the lines I gave.

It's true that the Russians in general, under the influence of Kasparov and Karpov and before them Petrosian, have tended to go with 3...Be7 (certainly Vaganian usually does; I'm surprised he's played 3....Nf6 as often as he has). Still, one might equally say that they don't play the Pirc much, and that doesn't stop people writing books about it.

I don't have much faith in statistics or top-level fashion, though - I did my own search in Megabase at 2500+ each side since 2005, and 3...Nf6 performed marginally better, while best of all was 3...c5.

I don't think we should be dissing Short or Yusupov either; one beat Karpov in a match in his peak years and one came very close, and they've both played this opening for many years at the highest conceivable level. They aren't your average world number 145 or whatever. Anyone who can't learn from them about this opening or chess in general certainly isn't going to learn anything much from my little book.

Anyway, there it is, as someone said there's no use in bemoaning what the book isn't about.

Schandorff, by the way, doesn't show or even claim a White advantage against the line I give either; on the contrary he relies on the famous game Kasparov-Andersson, in which everyone agrees Black was fine. I discuss in the book that it seems to me that actually Black was not just fine, and that White was far from well-placed out of the opening.

The line Schandorff allows as giving an unclear position against his 3...Be7 repertoire is interesting. It's been in the public domain for 25 years or so, since Karpov played 9....Nh6, and yet it's basically never been played in OTB GM events. I didn't do any analysis to see which side was avoiding it, but I did spend some time with the resulting position, playing both sides in turn against the computer, and for myself I wouldn't like to play Black. It seemed to me that his position was very difficult to play. Of course it might have been that it just didn't suit me, or that the computer plays White particularly well relative to humans, or some such factor.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #166 - 06/28/11 at 11:41:31
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Ubilava. 
Thought was a song about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mu8m8_-tRo
...but had misremembered.

As before, 'F22' has a valid point. ...Be7 would have been a very worthy alternative. Am a bit of a duffer, but my take is that as became increasingly apparent how potent the exchange was, due muchly to GK, things drifted to ...Be7. 

That said, F22 does go on and on and on. And on.  Could make a handsome living being paid to drive people out of pubs at closing time. Book is about ...Nf6, not about ...Be7. Also not about the lost art of Azerbaijini boar juggling. 

  
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F22
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #165 - 06/28/11 at 10:49:21
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MNb wrote on 06/28/11 at 10:07:21:
F22 wrote on 06/28/11 at 08:20:36:
Asking questions about a suggested repertoire on a chess opening forums is whining??

Yes, if you repeat your point ad nauseam like you are used to do.

F22 wrote on 06/28/11 at 08:40:35:
My guess is the theory of this line (called the Ubilava line) is much less than any of White's responses to NID.

As if Taljechin doesn't know. Do you also explain how to calculate 4 + 7 to teachers in maths?


Whining != Repeating. You didn't research the examples you gave from proponents of 3. ... Nf6 and instead of admitting that you were wrong you start name calling. 

And finally Taljechin is a user here so you posting a complaint on his behalf make no sense so quit it.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #164 - 06/28/11 at 10:07:21
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F22 wrote on 06/28/11 at 08:20:36:
Asking questions about a suggested repertoire on a chess opening forums is whining??

Yes, if you repeat your point ad nauseam like you are used to do.

F22 wrote on 06/28/11 at 08:40:35:
My guess is the theory of this line (called the Ubilava line) is much less than any of White's responses to NID.

As if Taljechin doesn't know. Do you also explain how to calculate 4 + 7 to teachers in maths?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #163 - 06/28/11 at 09:49:41
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F22 wrote on 06/28/11 at 08:40:35:
TalJechin wrote on 06/25/11 at 10:16:01:
Surely, the best move order for Black is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 and 3.Nc3 Bb4. A very simple and common move order trick, but hard to cover for a repertoire book on one opening. Consistency can really be a straight-jacket sometimes.


The NID move order means you have to learn a lot more theory: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 and now White has a very wide variety of choices: 4. Qc2, 4.a3-4.f3, 4. e3, 4.g3, 4. Nf3, 4. Bg5. On the other hand you can pick a single variation for Black in exchange variation: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bf4 Nf6 6. e3 Bf5 7. Qb3. My guess is the theory of this line (called the Ubilava line) is much less than any of White's responses to NID.


Also, this way you're covered for 1.c4 as well.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #162 - 06/28/11 at 09:23:59
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You can already see a few pages from the Tartakower chapter on Amazon Look Inside. So the book should be ready for delivery very soon.  Smiley
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #161 - 06/28/11 at 08:40:35
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TalJechin wrote on 06/25/11 at 10:16:01:
Surely, the best move order for Black is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 and 3.Nc3 Bb4. A very simple and common move order trick, but hard to cover for a repertoire book on one opening. Consistency can really be a straight-jacket sometimes.


The NID move order means you have to learn a lot more theory: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 and now White has a very wide variety of choices: 4. Qc2, 4.a3-4.f3, 4. e3, 4.g3, 4. Nf3, 4. Bg5. On the other hand you can pick a single variation for Black in exchange variation: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bf4 Nf6 6. e3 Bf5 7. Qb3. My guess is the theory of this line (called the Ubilava line) is much less than any of White's responses to NID.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #160 - 06/28/11 at 08:29:34
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Konstriktor wrote on 06/26/11 at 06:40:37:
I personally think 3. ... Nf6 is the most orthodox choice.

Be7 better? Could be, but if so the margin of being better is so small that you got to be 2600+ to make something out of it.

Also choice of openings is dependant on popularity. The dragon was not played for a while because it was "refuted", then Carlsen played it again and hey presto!

Same thing could happen with 3. ... Nf6 I presume.


After 3. ... Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 White scores 67.3% while after 3. ... Be7 4.cxd5 cxd5 White scores 60.6%. That comes from nearly 3000 games over 100 years or so.
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #159 - 06/28/11 at 08:20:36
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Daniel wrote on 06/25/11 at 23:32:26:
Stop whining.  It's John's book, not yours.  If you don't like that he doesn't give the slightly theoretically superior 3... Be7 then don't buy it.  You've made your point.  If he has good coverage of the lines he likes better then so what.  It's not like he's ducking out of the major theory like Bologan did with his 11. Bd2 Kh8 in the Mar del Plata King's Indian.

Wait until you have the book in your hands and see his analysis.  There is no need to dog him about choosing a line he likes better.  Ulf Andersson and Lars Bo Hansen have played the line he recommends and the sample he posted looks very interesting.  If you find holes in the books coverage or analysis, think of them as an opportunity to beat opponents blindly following the book for free.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/25/11 at 21:54:02:
The critical test of 3...Nf6 is 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bg5. 

I still vastly prefer White in this position, but there has been quite a bit of work by strong players to shore up Black's defenses. I'm not at all sure that white has a serious theoretical advantage in that QGD exchange. Schandorff has shown that White retains at least as much of an advantage in the 3....Be7 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bf4 lines.

The recent trend has indeed been toward 3...Be7 among +2700 players, but practical results and theory tend to support the argument that there is not much qualitative difference between the two moves.


Schandorff actually showed no advantage against 3... Be7.  The critical line is in a variation on page 31 and he gave an evaluation of unclear.  Black is fine there.


Asking questions about a suggested repertoire on a chess opening forums is whining?? To me the book sounds great but I have reservations about the choices that are presented for the exchange variation. Specially since reading Kasparov's books I was under the impression that 3. ... Nf6 was simply inferior. Here I should add that IM J. Cox says that the repertoire's hero is Rafael Vaganian. GM Vaganian also overwhelmingly chooses 3. ... Be7 (84 times) over 3. ... Nf6 (28 times).
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #158 - 06/26/11 at 14:56:21
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I think you missed the point of his post, Gilchrist is a legend!
  
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #157 - 06/26/11 at 08:39:33
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Not a matter of waiting for the book, but to prefer to have a timeframe of when books will be released in order to know when to prepare to expect it from the post.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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Re: Declining the Queen's Gambit by John Cox
Reply #156 - 06/26/11 at 08:27:05
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 06/26/11 at 08:02:16:
Yes but when in July? Smiley


If you don't have the patience to wait for the book, this is probably the wrong opening for you.   Wink
  
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