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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C57: Two Knights 5...Nxd5 (Read 78877 times)
Master Om
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #25 - 03/25/10 at 17:31:41
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SWJediknight wrote on 03/25/10 at 17:04:32:
I've been using Fritz's infinite analysis for guidance on the variations, but not analysis running for the whole day.  However, I, too, am sceptical of many of Fritz's evaluations- I think it places too much emphasis on the black king being stuck in the centre in the Fried Liver.  For instance, Fritz's assessment of the position at the end of your 14.0-0 Nf6 line, "=", is laughable, as even I can't see any compensation for White there.

It's more a case of me looking at the resulting positions and considering specifically what White has in return for the material deficit, and in some of the positions I quite like White's compensation.  That doesn't mean your assessments are wrong of course- sometimes compensation can seem good optically, and even offer good chances OTB, but objectively fail to provide anything concrete against good defence.


Correct. But i have assesed it. I have shared my 4 months work apart from my poison pawn analysis as i myself play it and have been playing since 6 years OTB. 

[ "My infallible computer sez..." redacted by Markovich ]
« Last Edit: 03/29/10 at 15:30:29 by Markovich »  

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SWJediknight
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #24 - 03/25/10 at 17:04:32
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I've been using Fritz's infinite analysis for guidance on the variations, but not analysis running for the whole day.  However, I, too, am sceptical of many of Fritz's evaluations- I think it places too much emphasis on the black king being stuck in the centre in the Fried Liver.  For instance, Fritz's assessment of the position at the end of your 14.0-0 Nf6 line, "=", is laughable, as even I can't see any compensation for White there.

It's more a case of me looking at the resulting positions and considering specifically what White has in return for the material deficit, and in some of the positions I quite like White's compensation.  That doesn't mean your assessments are wrong of course- sometimes compensation can seem good optically, and even offer good chances OTB, but objectively fail to provide anything concrete against good defence.
  
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #23 - 03/25/10 at 16:43:55
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SWJediknight wrote on 03/25/10 at 01:50:04:
Here are the questions I have on 9.Qe4 and 9.0-0 after a more "concrete" look:

A) 9.0-0 c6 10.d4 Qf6 is given as "-+", but how does Black prove this against 11.Qe2, with ideas of f4, dxe5 and Ne4?   11...Bd6 doesn't work after 12.f4.  Fritz 10 suggests moving the king away, via 11...Kd7, when White has 12.dxe5 Qg6 13.a3 Nxc3 14.bxc3 Nd5 15.Bd3, or perhaps 12.Ne4.   11...Ke7 and 11...Qg6 are well met by 12.f4, exploiting the position of the king on the e-file.

B) 9.Qe4 c6 10.a3 Na6 11.d4 

B1) 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+ Kg8 with the assessment "-/+", but White has two pawns for the piece, a strong centre, a passed e-pawn and control of the f-file, plus Black will have a hard time getting the rook into play, e.g. 15.Bd2 Nxc3 16.Bxe6+ Nxe6 17.Bxc3 and one plan is to double/triple up on the f-file.  Or 14...Ke8 15.Qd3, with the idea 16.Ne4 (15...Nxc3 16.bxc3 Qd7 17.Bxe6 Qxe6, or 16.Qxc3 Nd5 17.Qb3 and White seems to have compensation).

B2) 12.Bf4. Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6 14.Qf3+ (instead of 14.0-0 Nf6! when White has nothing for the material deficit) 14...Nf6 15.Bxe6+ Nxe6 16.0-0-0 Kg8 17.Rhe1 Ng5 18.Qg3 and I see a fair amount of compensation.


[ "My infallible computer sez..." redacted by Markovich ]

P.S - key to the position is black has to think that his pawn on e4 does not exist. If he tries to support he will surely loose it and this i am saying from my experience.
« Last Edit: 03/29/10 at 15:28:21 by Markovich »  

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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #22 - 03/25/10 at 15:05:30
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Btw my questions on 6.Nxf7 were more out of interest than any attempt to revive a pet line (I found some of the "-/+" and "-+" assessments in the 9.Qe4 and 9.0-0 lines hard to believe).  I had basically given it up a decade ago for reasons that others have given:
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I was previously under the impression that 6.d4! was almost a refutation while 6.Nxf7!? (now really "?" I suppose!) led to very unclear play with good chances for White.

If I were White, I would definitely play for a stable advantage with 6.d4 rather than seek complications through 6.Nxf7.

Markovich wrote on 03/25/10 at 12:26:45:
I would play 6.d4 and be very happy that my opponent hadn't played 6...Na5.  I don't see why anyone would play 6.Nxf7 against a strong opponent, given that 6.d4 is there. 


I'd be interested to know what Dan Heisman's verdict on those lines is as he has done a lot of analysis on them according to the following thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1155593698 ;
A couple of the later posts imply that he wasn't as pessimistic about White's prospects.

I don't own the book, but I recall that the notion of 6.d4 being crushing for White was put into question as early as 1995 in "The Big Book of Busts", offering 6...Bb4+, but I hadn't come across 6...Be6 before getting some back issues of Kaissiber.  7.dxe5 as above is probably best.  Dan Heisman prefers 6...Nxd4, as discussed in the aforementioned thread, the point being that 7.c3 does not win a piece as some sources erroneously state.
  
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #21 - 03/25/10 at 14:09:53
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/25/10 at 12:59:00:
kylemeister wrote on 03/22/10 at 17:59:15:
I would certainly think that the textbook 6...Be6 7. Nxe6 fe 8. de Nxe5 9. Qh5+ etc. is clearly better for White, i.e. a refutation.


8...Nxe5 is "ancient theory", given as slight advantage for White in Bilguer/Handbuch des Schachspiels 1916. So you are a bit behind...

ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 03/25/10 at 12:07:40:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/24/10 at 23:27:34:
Master Om claims a -/+ for 6.Nxf7?, because 8...Ncb4 is -/+, and that is certainly true, but not new. In the line 9.Qe4 his new move seems to be 14...Nf6! -+, when old theory was 14...Be7 15.f4 Nf6 16.Bxe6+ Nxe6 17.Qd3 Rf8 -/+, John Watson. 
In the main line 9.a3 Nxc2+ 10.Kd1 my analysis in Kaissiber 12 (1999) claimed an advantage for Black after 10...Nxa1! 11.Nxd5 c6! (a move mentioned by Master Om as !?) 12.Nc7+ Kd6 13.Nxa8 Qh4!, improving upon old analysis by Palau (1949). Black has an advantage, though I said "perhaps White can hold the ending with precise play". My analysis ended with 22...Bxh8 -/+. I am not sure whether Master Om's 11...Qh4 is better than 11...c6, maybe it is. But the observation that 6.Nxf7? is -/+ isn't new. 

6.d4 Be6!, recommended by De Zeeuw, is much more interesting. In Kaissiber 29 (2007) Maurits Wind studies it on 4 pp., and although he finds an advantage for White this line still deserves attention.


Ah, I admit I am not too familiar with developments in these lines, since I don't play them with either side. I was previously under the impression that 6.d4! was almost a refutation while 6.Nxf7!? (now really "?" I suppose!) led to very unclear play with good chances for White.

If I were White, I would definitely play for a stable advantage with 6.d4 rather than seek complications through 6.Nxf7. After 6.d4 Be6, the continuation 7.Nxe6 fxe6 8.dxe5 from kylemeister looks simply better for White. He seems to have a solid positional advantage without a lot of risk. If this is the case, the question of the Fried Liver seems a bit academic (although interesting in its own right).


"A solid positional advantage without a risk" may be true for 8...Nxe5?, less so for De Zeeuw's 8...Bc5, a sharp gambit which is highly dangerous in otb play. Unfortunately, Maurits Wind found a good reply for White, which is +/-. 

But there are two better moves: my 8...Qh4!? and Maurits Wind's 8...Bb4+ 9. c3 Bc5. The latter refutes the claim so popular in this thread (but not based on any reliable sources), that 7.Nxe6 gives White an advantage.


Ah, so 7.dxe5 must be more accurate.
  
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #20 - 03/25/10 at 12:59:00
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kylemeister wrote on 03/22/10 at 17:59:15:
I would certainly think that the textbook 6...Be6 7. Nxe6 fe 8. de Nxe5 9. Qh5+ etc. is clearly better for White, i.e. a refutation.


8...Nxe5 is "ancient theory", given as slight advantage for White in Bilguer/Handbuch des Schachspiels 1916. So you are a bit behind...

ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 03/25/10 at 12:07:40:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/24/10 at 23:27:34:
Master Om claims a -/+ for 6.Nxf7?, because 8...Ncb4 is -/+, and that is certainly true, but not new. In the line 9.Qe4 his new move seems to be 14...Nf6! -+, when old theory was 14...Be7 15.f4 Nf6 16.Bxe6+ Nxe6 17.Qd3 Rf8 -/+, John Watson. 
In the main line 9.a3 Nxc2+ 10.Kd1 my analysis in Kaissiber 12 (1999) claimed an advantage for Black after 10...Nxa1! 11.Nxd5 c6! (a move mentioned by Master Om as !?) 12.Nc7+ Kd6 13.Nxa8 Qh4!, improving upon old analysis by Palau (1949). Black has an advantage, though I said "perhaps White can hold the ending with precise play". My analysis ended with 22...Bxh8 -/+. I am not sure whether Master Om's 11...Qh4 is better than 11...c6, maybe it is. But the observation that 6.Nxf7? is -/+ isn't new. 

6.d4 Be6!, recommended by De Zeeuw, is much more interesting. In Kaissiber 29 (2007) Maurits Wind studies it on 4 pp., and although he finds an advantage for White this line still deserves attention.


Ah, I admit I am not too familiar with developments in these lines, since I don't play them with either side. I was previously under the impression that 6.d4! was almost a refutation while 6.Nxf7!? (now really "?" I suppose!) led to very unclear play with good chances for White.

If I were White, I would definitely play for a stable advantage with 6.d4 rather than seek complications through 6.Nxf7. After 6.d4 Be6, the continuation 7.Nxe6 fxe6 8.dxe5 from kylemeister looks simply better for White. He seems to have a solid positional advantage without a lot of risk. If this is the case, the question of the Fried Liver seems a bit academic (although interesting in its own right).


"A solid positional advantage without a risk" may be true for 8...Nxe5?, less so for De Zeeuw's 8...Bc5, a sharp gambit which is highly dangerous in otb play. Unfortunately, Maurits Wind found a good reply for White, which is +/-. 

But there are two better moves: my 8...Qh4!? and Maurits Wind's 8...Bb4+ 9. c3 Bc5. The latter refutes the claim so popular in this thread (but not based on any reliable sources), that 7.Nxe6 gives White an advantage.
  
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #19 - 03/25/10 at 12:26:45
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I would play 6.d4 and be very happy that my opponent hadn't played 6...Na5.  I don't see why anyone would play 6.Nxf7 against a strong opponent, given that 6.d4 is there.  Who knows, perhaps Master Om is God's gift to the theory of the Two Knights, but I respectfully doubt his claim that Black is fine there.

I'm not an e4 player, and if I were I wouldn't be an Italian player.  But in general if I know my opponent has made a very deep study of some sharp variation when I have not, absolutely never will I give him the chance to practice it against me.
  

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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #18 - 03/25/10 at 12:07:40
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/24/10 at 23:27:34:
Master Om claims a -/+ for 6.Nxf7?, because 8...Ncb4 is -/+, and that is certainly true, but not new. In the line 9.Qe4 his new move seems to be 14...Nf6! -+, when old theory was 14...Be7 15.f4 Nf6 16.Bxe6+ Nxe6 17.Qd3 Rf8 -/+, John Watson. 
In the main line 9.a3 Nxc2+ 10.Kd1 my analysis in Kaissiber 12 (1999) claimed an advantage for Black after 10...Nxa1! 11.Nxd5 c6! (a move mentioned by Master Om as !?) 12.Nc7+ Kd6 13.Nxa8 Qh4!, improving upon old analysis by Palau (1949). Black has an advantage, though I said "perhaps White can hold the ending with precise play". My analysis ended with 22...Bxh8 -/+. I am not sure whether Master Om's 11...Qh4 is better than 11...c6, maybe it is. But the observation that 6.Nxf7? is -/+ isn't new. 

6.d4 Be6!, recommended by De Zeeuw, is much more interesting. In Kaissiber 29 (2007) Maurits Wind studies it on 4 pp., and although he finds an advantage for White this line still deserves attention.


Ah, I admit I am not too familiar with developments in these lines, since I don't play them with either side. I was previously under the impression that 6.d4! was almost a refutation while 6.Nxf7!? (now really "?" I suppose!) led to very unclear play with good chances for White.

If I were White, I would definitely play for a stable advantage with 6.d4 rather than seek complications through 6.Nxf7. After 6.d4 Be6, the continuation 7.Nxe6 fxe6 8.dxe5 from kylemeister looks simply better for White. He seems to have a solid positional advantage without a lot of risk. If this is the case, the question of the Fried Liver seems a bit academic (although interesting in its own right).
  
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #17 - 03/25/10 at 02:24:29
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Markovich wrote on 03/24/10 at 18:43:31:
I'll look at your analysis, for which I thank you, but I'm confused about your claim.  Which is it, Black wins after 6.Nxf7, or draw with best play after 6.Nxf7?

De Zeeuw, not De Leeuw, and Marteen, not Martin, sorry.

Yes. Just look at final position. That position will lead to draw if very accurate play is there from white side. I have beaten Two players having two IM norms OTB from that position after Bc5. Black saves the night then wins. there are lots of options for white to go wrong. Apart from that in most of the lines white is -+ .
  

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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #16 - 03/25/10 at 01:50:04
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Here are the questions I have on 9.Qe4 and 9.0-0 after a more "concrete" look:

A) 9.0-0 c6 10.d4 Qf6 is given as "-+", but how does Black prove this against 11.Qe2, with ideas of f4, dxe5 and Ne4?   11...Bd6 doesn't work after 12.f4.  Fritz 10 suggests moving the king away, via 11...Kd7, when White has 12.dxe5 Qg6 13.a3 Nxc3 14.bxc3 Nd5 15.Bd3, or perhaps 12.Ne4.   11...Ke7 and 11...Qg6 are well met by 12.f4, exploiting the position of the king on the e-file.

B) 9.Qe4 c6 10.a3 Na6 11.d4 

B1) 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+ Kg8 with the assessment "-/+", but White has two pawns for the piece, a strong centre, a passed e-pawn and control of the f-file, plus Black will have a hard time getting the rook into play, e.g. 15.Bd2 Nxc3 16.Bxe6+ Nxe6 17.Bxc3 and one plan is to double/triple up on the f-file.  Or 14...Ke8 15.Qd3, with the idea 16.Ne4 (15...Nxc3 16.bxc3 Qd7 17.Bxe6 Qxe6, or 16.Qxc3 Nd5 17.Qb3 and White seems to have compensation).

B2) 12.Bf4. Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6 14.Qf3+ (instead of 14.0-0 Nf6! when White has nothing for the material deficit) 14...Nf6 15.Bxe6+ Nxe6 16.0-0-0 Kg8 17.Rhe1 Ng5 18.Qg3 and I see a fair amount of compensation.
  
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #15 - 03/24/10 at 23:27:34
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Master Om claims a -/+ for 6.Nxf7?, because 8...Ncb4 is -/+, and that is certainly true, but not new. In the line 9.Qe4 his new move seems to be 14...Nf6! -+, when old theory was 14...Be7 15.f4 Nf6 16.Bxe6+ Nxe6 17.Qd3 Rf8 -/+, John Watson. 
In the main line 9.a3 Nxc2+ 10.Kd1 my analysis in Kaissiber 12 (1999) claimed an advantage for Black after 10...Nxa1! 11.Nxd5 c6! (a move mentioned by Master Om as !?) 12.Nc7+ Kd6 13.Nxa8 Qh4!, improving upon old analysis by Palau (1949). Black has an advantage, though I said "perhaps White can hold the ending with precise play". My analysis ended with 22...Bxh8 -/+. I am not sure whether Master Om's 11...Qh4 is better than 11...c6, maybe it is. But the observation that 6.Nxf7? is -/+ isn't new. 

6.d4 Be6!, recommended by De Zeeuw, is much more interesting. In Kaissiber 29 (2007) Maurits Wind studies it on 4 pp., and although he finds an advantage for White this line still deserves attention.
  
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #14 - 03/24/10 at 20:58:34
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SWJediknight wrote on 03/24/10 at 20:01:34:
Just had a quick check of some of the lines (I don't have much time, but enough to have a little look, with the aid of Fritz 10).  The line given against (6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4) 9.a3 looks convincing, leading to -/+, but in the other two major continuations (9.Qe4 and 9.0-0) analysis frequently stops with an assessment of "-/+" or even "-+" when a quick glance at the position shows White with two or three pawns for the piece and continued attacking chances against the exposed black king, and probably no worse than equal.


What's scary though is that he could be right! This looks like it demands a bit more than a quick glance. Shocked
  
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #13 - 03/24/10 at 20:01:34
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Just had a quick check of some of the lines (I don't have much time, but enough to have a little look, with the aid of Fritz 10).  The line given against (6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4) 9.a3 looks convincing, leading to -/+, but in the other two major continuations (9.Qe4 and 9.0-0) analysis frequently stops with an assessment of "-/+" or even "-+" when a quick glance at the position shows White with two or three pawns for the piece and continued attacking chances against the exposed black king, and probably no worse than equal.
  
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #12 - 03/24/10 at 19:19:20
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Markovich wrote on 03/24/10 at 18:43:31:
I'll look at your analysis, for which I thank you, but I'm confused about your claim.  Which is it, Black wins after 6.Nxf7, or draw with best play after 6.Nxf7?

De Zeeuw, not De Leeuw, and Marteen, not Martin, sorry.


Briefly looking at the pgn, it appears that it should called "How to Refute 5...Nxd5! 6.Nxf7?" where Master Om claims that Black has a clear advantage at the end of analysis (-/+). I am guessing that he considers 6.d4 equal with best play, since that line is not included although 6.Qf3 and 6.Qh5 are mentioned.
  
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Re: Two Knights 5...Nxd5
Reply #11 - 03/24/10 at 18:43:31
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I'll look at your analysis, for which I thank you, but I'm confused about your claim.  Which is it, Black wins after 6.Nxf7, or draw with best play after 6.Nxf7?

De Zeeuw, not De Leeuw, and Marteen, not Martin, sorry.
  

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