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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis (Read 19268 times)
nimzo5
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Re: Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis
Reply #59 - 04/09/10 at 19:02:03
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On the subject of the freestyle team- I have played Cramton on icc - his handle is luminarydebris.


  

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MNb
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Re: Computer assistance at the highest level
Reply #58 - 04/01/10 at 20:48:06
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Master Om wrote on 04/01/10 at 03:59:52:
I am not a bad player Either Wink


But you did not care to answer questions on what level you play.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis
Reply #57 - 04/01/10 at 15:02:18
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I found the chessbase article. Manuel Rodriguez of the Dominican Republic changed his puzzle from one he said he found "somewhere on the internet". His puzzle was flawed but almost identical.

Now, I just need to find the original.

Here's the link to the chessbase article.


http://www.chessbase.com/puzzle/christmas2009/chr09-sol1.htm
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis
Reply #56 - 04/01/10 at 14:27:49
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 04/01/10 at 13:52:44:
Regarding the example cited, chessbase had a week of anti-computer puzzles, and this looks strikingly familiar.  I'm more concerned that no credit was given to the originator of the chess puzzle if it wasn't Master Om.


I saw the same article, and I had the same impression.
  

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YIMAIM  
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Re: Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis
Reply #55 - 04/01/10 at 14:03:39
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 04/01/10 at 13:52:44:
Markovich wrote on 04/01/10 at 13:12:43:
Master OM, try not quoting every last bit of the big posts to which you reply.  It wastes bandwidth.


Markovich, we don't really need to worry about bandwidth here. 

But, it's bad form to have lengthy quotes anyway.  Do you really want everyone to re-read what was written before they read your pithy response?  Most chess players are fully capable of reading the original post. 

As a moderator, I generally don't go in for editing based on conventions and grammar.

Regarding the example cited, chessbase had a week of anti-computer puzzles, and this looks strikingly familiar.  I'm more concerned that no credit was given to the originator of the chess puzzle if it wasn't Master Om.

Although this was not mine it is not Chessbases either One of my friends does this to find which engine is best for which position as here shredder only understands this and there are lot many.
  
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Master Om
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Re: Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis
Reply #54 - 04/01/10 at 13:53:36
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Sorry. I didn't think of it. i will take care hence forth.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis
Reply #53 - 04/01/10 at 13:52:44
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Markovich wrote on 04/01/10 at 13:12:43:
Master OM, try not quoting every last bit of the big posts to which you reply.  It wastes bandwidth.


Markovich, we don't really need to worry about bandwidth here. 

But, it's bad form to have lengthy quotes anyway.  Do you really want everyone to re-read what was written before they read your pithy response?  Most chess players are fully capable of reading the original post. 

As a moderator, I generally don't go in for editing based on conventions and grammar.

Regarding the example cited, chessbase had a week of anti-computer puzzles, and this looks strikingly familiar.  I'm more concerned that no credit was given to the originator of the chess puzzle if it wasn't Master Om.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis
Reply #52 - 04/01/10 at 13:12:43
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Master OM, try not quoting every last bit of the big posts to which you reply.  It wastes bandwidth.
  

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Master Om
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Re: Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis
Reply #51 - 04/01/10 at 12:55:43
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Vladimir wrote on 04/01/10 at 05:18:38:
Master Om wrote on 04/01/10 at 04:15:43:
So please any one Analyze this and tell me who can find the answer.
8/1p6/1Pp2N1q/p1Ppk2p/P3p3/3PPpPp/3K1P1P/1R6 w - - 0


* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

It doesn't seem so difficult: 1.Ng4+ hxg4 2.d4+ Kf5 3.Rh1 Qh8 4.Ke1 Qa8 5.Kf1 Qa6+ 6.Kg1 and the king just shuffles between f1 and g1.

Engines won't find 1.Ng4+, but they will find the defense afterward. Most of them will grossly misevaluate the position, but that's not really a problem if they find the right moves. The score never goes up despite how deeply it looks, meaning that its search cannot find any way to progress. That also means that everything is working correctly, but the engines just do not have any way to properly evaluate the concept of "progress." It gives the otherwise proper evaluation weights to the queen, a few mobility penalties for the rook in the corner, and that's about it.

Very few engines have implemented explicit blocked-pawn code, namely Crafty and maybe Shredder, if I'm not mistaken. They prefer to handle blocked pawns practically by cooking their opening books to avoid them, and giving early evaluation penalties to closing the position. If such situations are never allowed to arise, then they will not have to bother trying to solve their engines' short-sightedness. This anti-human concept may not be so helpful in analysis, but it's the easiest way to deal with it.

Also, it's been a known problem for a long, long time and doesn't really prove anything. The situation can be summed up as... the engine programmers know about it but just don't care. Exploit it if you can, but there's no reason to sacrifice overall strength in every other position with cumbersomely slow evaluation terms just to handle such extreme cases.



Thus as you guessed Shredder is the only engine which can find the answer w/o any help.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis
Reply #50 - 04/01/10 at 12:51:55
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I appreciate MNb's vote of confidence, but I don't claim to be a "very strong" cc player.  Just now, my ICCF rating is 2287.  OTB I haven't played in quite a few years, and I don't have a FIDE rating.  USCF 2240.  Not that any of this is at all relevant in this thread, I just didn't wan't to seem to bask in MNb's too generous praise.
  

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Re: Computer assistance at the highest level
Reply #49 - 04/01/10 at 07:22:53
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Master Om wrote on 04/01/10 at 03:59:52:
MNb wrote on 04/01/10 at 02:39:38:
Master Om wrote on 03/31/10 at 04:45:45:
This is to wake Markovich up . I posted it to just show how Important is Computer's suggestion in chess and even in highest level Players like Garry Kasparov need advice from them.


Grin

For your information: Markovich is an experienced and very strong correspondence player. Since years he uses engines to help him. If I ever will meet him - I am only an experienced, but not so strong corr player - he will wipe the board with me, no matter how strong the engines are that I may use.
Markovich also works with large computers in his work. And a greenhorn like you wants to wake him up?

Grin

Never undermine the opponent. I am not a bad player Either Wink.
In case of Ideas Learning is a continuous process Roll Eyes.


FIDE rating?
  
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Vladimir
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Re: Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis
Reply #48 - 04/01/10 at 05:18:38
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Master Om wrote on 04/01/10 at 04:15:43:
So please any one Analyze this and tell me who can find the answer.
8/1p6/1Pp2N1q/p1Ppk2p/P3p3/3PPpPp/3K1P1P/1R6 w - - 0


* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

It doesn't seem so difficult: 1.Ng4+ hxg4 2.d4+ Kf5 3.Rh1 Qh8 4.Ke1 Qa8 5.Kf1 Qa6+ 6.Kg1 and the king just shuffles between f1 and g1.

Engines won't find 1.Ng4+, but they will find the defense afterward. Most of them will grossly misevaluate the position, but that's not really a problem if they find the right moves. The score never goes up despite how deeply it looks, meaning that its search cannot find any way to progress. That also means that everything is working correctly, but the engines just do not have any way to properly evaluate the concept of "progress." It gives the otherwise proper evaluation weights to the queen, a few mobility penalties for the rook in the corner, and that's about it.

Very few engines have implemented explicit blocked-pawn code, namely Crafty and maybe Shredder, if I'm not mistaken. They prefer to handle blocked pawns practically by cooking their opening books to avoid them, and giving early evaluation penalties to closing the position. If such situations are never allowed to arise, then they will not have to bother trying to solve their engines' short-sightedness. This anti-human concept may not be so helpful in analysis, but it's the easiest way to deal with it.

Also, it's been a known problem for a long, long time and doesn't really prove anything. The situation can be summed up as... the engine programmers know about it but just don't care. Exploit it if you can, but there's no reason to sacrifice overall strength in every other position with cumbersomely slow evaluation terms just to handle such extreme cases.
  
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Re: Computer assistance at the highest level
Reply #47 - 04/01/10 at 04:49:47
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Master Om wrote on 04/01/10 at 03:59:52:
Never undermine the opponent.


Irony is beautiful.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: Merits and Limits of Computerized Analysis
Reply #46 - 04/01/10 at 04:15:43
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So please any one Analyze this and tell me who can find the answer.
8/1p6/1Pp2N1q/p1Ppk2p/P3p3/3PPpPp/3K1P1P/1R6 w - - 0
  
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Master Om
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Re: Computer assistance at the highest level
Reply #45 - 04/01/10 at 03:59:52
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MNb wrote on 04/01/10 at 02:39:38:
Master Om wrote on 03/31/10 at 04:45:45:
This is to wake Markovich up . I posted it to just show how Important is Computer's suggestion in chess and even in highest level Players like Garry Kasparov need advice from them.


Grin

For your information: Markovich is an experienced and very strong correspondence player. Since years he uses engines to help him. If I ever will meet him - I am only an experienced, but not so strong corr player - he will wipe the board with me, no matter how strong the engines are that I may use.
Markovich also works with large computers in his work. And a greenhorn like you wants to wake him up?

Grin

Never undermine the opponent. I am not a bad player Either Wink.
In case of Ideas Learning is a continuous process Roll Eyes.
  
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