dom wrote on 10/26/10 at 11:14:00:

You tell me - after move 10 or so I am not sure which the main lines are. I just thought the idea of an early ...e5 very attractive. Next time I might try something else, as this is not quite the only attractive idea Black has. The first 15 moves or so were played before I bought Moskalenko's excellent book.
When I had to decide between 11...0-0 and 11...Qc7 I found it hard to believe that White should be better in the position after 17...Ngxe5, despite four wins. A passed pawn and the weaknesses around White's King should provide chances. Of course White has a lead in development, but such is chesslife - give and take.

MNb wrote on 03/30/10 at 22:31:37:

My bias has been confirmed:

Grabowski-MNb
em WS/H/187
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.O-O Bd6 11.Nf3 O-O 12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4 Ng4 14.Qd2 Qd6 15.g3 e5 16.dxe5 Qh6 17.h4 Ngxe5 18.Be2 Rd8 19.Rfd1 d4 20.Rac1 Qd6 21.Qc2 g6 22.h5 Bf5 23.Qb3+ Kh8 24.hxg6 hxg6 25.Kg2 Rd7 26.Ng5 Na5 27.Qa4 Nac6 28.Bc4 Nxc4 29.Qxc4 Kg7 30.Nge6+ Kf6 31.Nc5 Rh7 32.Rh1 Rxh1 33.Rxh1 Ne5 34.Qd5 Rd8 35.Ne4+ Bxe4+ 36.Qxe4 Qc6 37.Qxc6+ bxc6 38.Ne2 c5 39.b3 Kf5 40.Rd1 Ke4 41.Rh1 a5 42.Rh4+ Kd3 43.Nf4+ Kc2 44.Rh7 d3 45.Nxd3 Rxd3 and after another superfluous 12 moves White resigned.

3.Nc3 is the only move that gives me problems.

BPaulsen wrote on 03/31/10 at 13:37:46:

I didn't get you ?

I do agree that the French Steinitz (1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5) is an excellent system to learn for White.  Khalifman recommends it in OFWAA volumes 6 & 7 (volume 7 is devoted to the Winawer).

I'm having real trouble with the Black side of the Alekhin-Chatard Attack, so I'd also recommend 4.Bg5 as a possible alternative for White. In practice, you would have to prepare for 4...de4, which may be Black's most popular response.  I personally don't like it much for Black because there are relatively few winning chances there for either side. 

Interesting responses.  Many of the variations suggested that do not become a Winawer involve the Steinitz variation (e5) rather than the classical (Bg5).  I am curious is this because the latter is now theoretically under a cloud or simply not all the rage and out of fashion.  I have played Bg5 a bit and find I get ok positions in the center after I play f4 and play on the dark squares (with black's dark square bishop now gone).  But it is hard to whip up an attack.  Is the Steinitz more aggressive?  Just curious about thoughts.

And by the way, this thread is very helpful.  It is jogging my memory on many things and I am now putting much more time into learning the French from both sides.  So, thank you-interesting discussion bearing fruit.

YD

I used to play the French a lot, but nowadays I only play it sometimes, and tend to prefer White's position in both the main Tarrasch, Classical, Rubinstein and Winawer lines. 4.Nge2 isn't the best way to play for an edge, but Winawer devotees, who spend nearly all their time on 4.e5, rarely have a fully prepared antidote to it, making it as good a practical try as 4.e5, at least below 2600 level as Hector has shown. 

6.Ne4 Nf6 7.Qd3!? is another interesting line, aiming to castle queenside as quickly as possible. Again, equal but  easier to play for White.

Good system vs. French:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 and now:

a) 3...Bb4 4.Nge2 de4 5.a3 Be7 6.g4!?. There's also 5...Bc3 to examine and the various declined lines on move 4. I think this line is underestimated although Black can equalise with accurate play. 

b) 3...Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Nf3, getting you back to the positions with opposite side castling and plenty of fun for White.

c) 3...de4 4.Ne4 Nd7 (4...Bd7 isn't an issue unless you are very impatient) 5.Nf3 Ngf6 6.Nf6 Nf6 7.c3 c5 8.Ne5. Good enough for an edge.

d) 3...Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nd2 8.Qd2 - Black has the two bishops but White is better.

yankdog wrote on 03/31/10 at 00:56:48:


The French is indeed fascinating! I enjoy it from both sides of the board (at least as long I don't see the "un-French" 3.exd5 or 3.Nc3 dxe4 played).

If you want to maintain the tension without playing main lines, think some more about the King's Indian Attack maybe? Emms wrote a good Starting Out-book on it a few years ago. If you learn its themes well you can vary with different move orders: 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2, 2.Qe2 and 2.d3 d5 3.Qe2, and you even get an extra surprise weapon against ...e6-based Sicilians as a bonus (2.Nf3 e6 3.d3).

The Kupreichik variation (3.e5 with Be3) isn't a bad practical weapon either, I don't think most black players below 2000 are well-prepared for it. But the mentioned move order 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 is a problem.