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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Sicilian Wings Gambit (Read 25954 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #24 - 06/15/10 at 02:07:50
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trw wrote on 06/14/10 at 18:00:08:
How does one get these Kaissibers? Are they only in German?

Granted I don't play 7. d4 but the idea is an interesting. I think I still prefer 7. Bd3.

Still for fun, whats wrong with 7. d4 exd4+ 8. Be2 Qb6 9. 0-0 Bc5 10. axb4 Bxb4 11. Nxd4 though its probably = I definitely prefer white here.

This line isn't too bad, at least it offers practical chances. But 9...Nc6 is more precise, which doesn't waste a tempo. Maybe then 10.Nbd2 =+. 

In a few years online publishing will be safe and online translation much improved. Now Kaissiber is only available in German (+ Italian); www.kaissiber.de; e-mail: sb@kaissiber.de ; but a German chess board has also 64 squares.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #23 - 06/14/10 at 23:29:18
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trw wrote on 06/14/10 at 18:00:08:
How does one get these Kaissibers? Are they only in German?

Give FM Bücker your data and pay him. They are only in German indeed.
If you propose an online version I am with you. I receive them with a delay of several weeks.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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trw
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #22 - 06/14/10 at 18:00:08
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How does one get these Kaissibers? Are they only in German?

Granted I don't play 7. d4 but the idea is an interesting. I think I still prefer 7. Bd3.

Still for fun, whats wrong with 7. d4 exd4+ 8. Be2 Qb6 9. 0-0 Bc5 10. axb4 Bxb4 11. Nxd4 though its probably = I definitely prefer white here.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #21 - 06/14/10 at 08:06:46
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Bonsai wrote on 06/14/10 at 06:16:12:
By the way, an interesting related idea that I ran into recently is
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. a3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Nf3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. d4
where it may actually have been better for white that the bishop was still on c1.

Well, I'll admit I was already out of theory by move 4 (I vaguely remembered that there was this d7-d5 + Qxd5 idea with the threat of Qe5+, but that is all I really knew). I had never faced the wing gambit in a game before, so I guess that's a good practical argument for it. Additionally it looks like even if I had known my theory this particular line is not mentioned in any of my books.

[...] The computer wants to go into 1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. a3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Nf3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. d4 exd4+ as black. 

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However it is rather easy to go wrong as black, after some fiddling about with Rybka, I for example managed to produce the following example:
8.Be2 Nc6 9. O-O Nf6 10. Re1 Be7 11. Bf1 Qd6 12. axb4 Nxb4 13. Ra4 Nc6 14. Ba3 Qc7 15. Bxe7 Nxe7 16. Na3 Bd7 17. Nb5 Bxb5 18. cxb5 O-O 19.Rc4 Qd7 20.Rxd4, which looks rather nice for white. In other lines, white (perhaps less favourably) regains the a7 pawn.

In Kaissiber #29 Michiel Wind preferred 7.Bd3, the immediate 7.d4 exd4+ 8.Be2 does not work according to his analyses: 8...Qb6! 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Be3 Nf6 =+. Do you see an improvement for White?

The 3...bxa3 line is underestimated by some authors; it will be discussed in the next part of the Kaissiber series on the sicilian Wing Gambit.
  
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Bonsai
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #20 - 06/14/10 at 06:16:12
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linksspringer wrote on 03/31/10 at 21:37:28:
Uberdecker wrote on 03/31/10 at 19:52:53:
I was thinking more of 3. ...d5 ; 4. ed Qxd5 ; 5. Ktf3 e5

OK, thanks, the mainline. However, 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 e5 6.Bb2 Nc6 7.c4 and 6.c4!? seem to be in good shape according to analysis in Kaissiber 29.

By the way, an interesting related idea that I ran into recently is
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. a3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Nf3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. d4
where it may actually have been better for white that the bishop was still on c1.

Well, I'll admit I was already out of theory by move 4 (I vaguely remembered that there was this d7-d5 + Qxd5 idea with the threat of Qe5+, but that is all I really knew). I had never faced the wing gambit in a game before, so I guess that's a good practical argument for it. Additionally it looks like even if I had known my theory this particular line is not mentioned in any of my books.

I probably had to go for the complications following 7...exd4+, which actually seems fine for white, but instead played 7...Nd7 8. Be2 Nh6 9. O-O Be7 10. d5 Qb6 11. axb4 Bxb4 12. Ba3 O-O 13.Nbd2 Bxa3 14. Rxa3 f6 15. Rb3 Qa5 16. Ne4 b6 17. Qc2 f5 18. Nd6 Qc5 19. Nxc8 Raxc8 20. Qb2 Nf7 21.Ra1 Rc7 22. Nd2 Qe7 23. Rba3 Nc5 24. Qa2 Ra8 25. h3 e4 26. Nb3 Nxb3 27. Rxb3
By this point I had consolidated my a clear extra pawn (I was already at least equal after 14...f6). I eventually won after a rather 53 move struggle. White can of course improve e.g. on moves 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 20 etc. My point however was more that there's plenty of unexplored options that actually seem most playable.
The computer wants to go into 1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. a3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Nf3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. d4 exd4+ as black. 
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However it is rather easy to go wrong as black, after some fiddling about with Rybka, I for example managed to produce the following example:
8.Be2 Nc6 9. O-O Nf6 10. Re1 Be7 11. Bf1 Qd6 12. axb4 Nxb4 13. Ra4 Nc6 14. Ba3 Qc7 15. Bxe7 Nxe7 16. Na3 Bd7 17. Nb5 Bxb5 18. cxb5 O-O 19.Rc4 Qd7 20.Rxd4, which looks rather nice for white. In other lines, white (perhaps less favourably) regains the a7 pawn.
PatzerNoster wrote on 06/14/10 at 01:53:07:
I looked at the Wing Gambit again and I think that I identified a critical line:

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cb4: 3.a3 ba3: 4.d4 d6 5.Bd3 Nf6 6.Ne2 g6 7.0-0 Bg7 8.Na3: 0-0 9.c3 Nc6 10.f4 a6 (the position might be reached through many moveorders, white can capture the pawn at any point).

PatzerNoster wrote on 06/14/10 at 01:53:07:
What do you think about the position?

It at least looks murky enough to be playable for white in a practical game. Black does not have any really easy ways to challenge the white center and seems to be a bit passive (ideas with d6+e5 without g7-g6 seem to fight for the centre a bit more). E.g. in similar Pirc positions c7-c5 would be crucial (and the center would not be bolstered by a pawn on c3, because a knight would be there). On the other hand, black has no weakness and an extra pawn.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #19 - 06/14/10 at 01:53:07
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I looked at the Wing Gambit again and I think that I identified a critical line:

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cb4: 3.a3 ba3: 4.d4 d6 5.Bd3 Nf6 6.Ne2 g6 7.0-0 Bg7 8.Na3: 0-0 9.c3 Nc6 10.f4 a6 (the position might be reached through many moveorders, white can capture the pawn at any point).

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Black plans to undermine the white centre with b5-b4 or to put the bishop on b7, rook on c8 and bring a knight to c4 via a5. He has to watch out though, as a direct b5 hangs the pawn.

Now the question in the position above is what white should do and why he should have compensation for the pawn. White has better control over the centre, although that alone is seldom enough to claim compensation, as black can strike back at some point with either e5 or d5.
The guru of the wing gambit IM Zajarnyi had the position twice, once he played 11.e5 Nd5 12.Qb3 and played on the queenside, the next time he played 11.f5 and Qe1 to play on the kingside.

What do you think about the position?
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #18 - 04/01/10 at 15:31:10
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Will look at your suggestion more closely, Stefan. I presume the Bishop is tucked back to -f1 before you play d4 ?
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #17 - 04/01/10 at 10:12:35
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In line two, 6. b5 e5 was given by Gligoric/Sokolov in their book on the Sicilian Defense, Zagreb 1963, without expressing a preference for either side.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #16 - 04/01/10 at 08:57:08
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The 2 lines that according to my experience give white the most problems are:

1.Taking the pawn on a3 followed by a setup of d6 Nf6 e5 Nbd7 Qc7 Be7 b6 a6 and simply holding the line on e5 where white should simply play normal moves like he isn't a pawn down.

2. Like mentioned by Dimis 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.axb4(best) Nxd5 is interesting especially because the sometimes recommended gambit line 6.d4 fails on e5!. but after the logical 6. b5 followed by development ex 6...e5 7.Bc4 we have an unexplored and interesting position with chances for both sides.

  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #15 - 04/01/10 at 02:35:42
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8. Bd3 followed by 0-0, Re1 "and so on", heading for a quick d2-d4 to open the position. Not a pleasant line for Black to play, according to the database White has scored 64% in 59 games. Much worse, if you only look at games by IM Zajarnyi, an expert of the line. The detailed analysis by Michiel Wind in Kaissiber #29 shows that White gets fine attacking chances.
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #14 - 03/31/10 at 22:52:59
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Could you supply some lines, in particular following 7. c4 Qe6 ?
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #13 - 03/31/10 at 21:37:28
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Uberdecker wrote on 03/31/10 at 19:52:53:
I was thinking more of 3. ...d5 ; 4. ed Qxd5 ; 5. Ktf3 e5

OK, thanks, the mainline. However, 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 e5 6.Bb2 Nc6 7.c4 and 6.c4!? seem to be in good shape according to analysis in Kaissiber 29.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #12 - 03/31/10 at 19:52:53
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I was thinking more of 3. ...d5 ; 4. ed Qxd5 ; 5. Ktf3 e5
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #11 - 03/31/10 at 19:25:57
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Uberdecker wrote on 03/31/10 at 18:43:38:
I don't see 3. ...d5 analyzed there. From what i can tell, it more or less refutes 3. Ktf3.
White should try 3. a3 or 3. d4 although these too are almost certainly insufficient for equality.

I agree about 3.Nf3 and 3.d4, but why do you think 3.a3 is insufficient for equality? Perhaps 3...bxa3 as PatzerNoster noted?
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #10 - 03/31/10 at 18:43:38
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I don't see 3. ...d5 analyzed there. From what i can tell, it more or less refutes 3. Ktf3.
White should try 3. a3 or 3. d4 although these too are almost certainly insufficient for equality.
  
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