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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Sicilian Wings Gambit (Read 25951 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #24 - 06/15/10 at 02:07:50
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trw wrote on 06/14/10 at 18:00:08:
How does one get these Kaissibers? Are they only in German?

Granted I don't play 7. d4 but the idea is an interesting. I think I still prefer 7. Bd3.

Still for fun, whats wrong with 7. d4 exd4+ 8. Be2 Qb6 9. 0-0 Bc5 10. axb4 Bxb4 11. Nxd4 though its probably = I definitely prefer white here.

This line isn't too bad, at least it offers practical chances. But 9...Nc6 is more precise, which doesn't waste a tempo. Maybe then 10.Nbd2 =+. 

In a few years online publishing will be safe and online translation much improved. Now Kaissiber is only available in German (+ Italian); www.kaissiber.de; e-mail: sb@kaissiber.de ; but a German chess board has also 64 squares.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #23 - 06/14/10 at 23:29:18
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trw wrote on 06/14/10 at 18:00:08:
How does one get these Kaissibers? Are they only in German?

Give FM Bücker your data and pay him. They are only in German indeed.
If you propose an online version I am with you. I receive them with a delay of several weeks.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #22 - 06/14/10 at 18:00:08
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How does one get these Kaissibers? Are they only in German?

Granted I don't play 7. d4 but the idea is an interesting. I think I still prefer 7. Bd3.

Still for fun, whats wrong with 7. d4 exd4+ 8. Be2 Qb6 9. 0-0 Bc5 10. axb4 Bxb4 11. Nxd4 though its probably = I definitely prefer white here.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #21 - 06/14/10 at 08:06:46
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Bonsai wrote on 06/14/10 at 06:16:12:
By the way, an interesting related idea that I ran into recently is
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. a3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Nf3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. d4
where it may actually have been better for white that the bishop was still on c1.

Well, I'll admit I was already out of theory by move 4 (I vaguely remembered that there was this d7-d5 + Qxd5 idea with the threat of Qe5+, but that is all I really knew). I had never faced the wing gambit in a game before, so I guess that's a good practical argument for it. Additionally it looks like even if I had known my theory this particular line is not mentioned in any of my books.

[...] The computer wants to go into 1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. a3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Nf3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. d4 exd4+ as black. 

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However it is rather easy to go wrong as black, after some fiddling about with Rybka, I for example managed to produce the following example:
8.Be2 Nc6 9. O-O Nf6 10. Re1 Be7 11. Bf1 Qd6 12. axb4 Nxb4 13. Ra4 Nc6 14. Ba3 Qc7 15. Bxe7 Nxe7 16. Na3 Bd7 17. Nb5 Bxb5 18. cxb5 O-O 19.Rc4 Qd7 20.Rxd4, which looks rather nice for white. In other lines, white (perhaps less favourably) regains the a7 pawn.

In Kaissiber #29 Michiel Wind preferred 7.Bd3, the immediate 7.d4 exd4+ 8.Be2 does not work according to his analyses: 8...Qb6! 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.Be3 Nf6 =+. Do you see an improvement for White?

The 3...bxa3 line is underestimated by some authors; it will be discussed in the next part of the Kaissiber series on the sicilian Wing Gambit.
  
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Bonsai
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #20 - 06/14/10 at 06:16:12
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linksspringer wrote on 03/31/10 at 21:37:28:
Uberdecker wrote on 03/31/10 at 19:52:53:
I was thinking more of 3. ...d5 ; 4. ed Qxd5 ; 5. Ktf3 e5

OK, thanks, the mainline. However, 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 e5 6.Bb2 Nc6 7.c4 and 6.c4!? seem to be in good shape according to analysis in Kaissiber 29.

By the way, an interesting related idea that I ran into recently is
1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. a3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Nf3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. d4
where it may actually have been better for white that the bishop was still on c1.

Well, I'll admit I was already out of theory by move 4 (I vaguely remembered that there was this d7-d5 + Qxd5 idea with the threat of Qe5+, but that is all I really knew). I had never faced the wing gambit in a game before, so I guess that's a good practical argument for it. Additionally it looks like even if I had known my theory this particular line is not mentioned in any of my books.

I probably had to go for the complications following 7...exd4+, which actually seems fine for white, but instead played 7...Nd7 8. Be2 Nh6 9. O-O Be7 10. d5 Qb6 11. axb4 Bxb4 12. Ba3 O-O 13.Nbd2 Bxa3 14. Rxa3 f6 15. Rb3 Qa5 16. Ne4 b6 17. Qc2 f5 18. Nd6 Qc5 19. Nxc8 Raxc8 20. Qb2 Nf7 21.Ra1 Rc7 22. Nd2 Qe7 23. Rba3 Nc5 24. Qa2 Ra8 25. h3 e4 26. Nb3 Nxb3 27. Rxb3
By this point I had consolidated my a clear extra pawn (I was already at least equal after 14...f6). I eventually won after a rather 53 move struggle. White can of course improve e.g. on moves 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 20 etc. My point however was more that there's plenty of unexplored options that actually seem most playable.
The computer wants to go into 1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. a3 d5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Nf3 e5 6. c4 Qe6 7. d4 exd4+ as black. 
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However it is rather easy to go wrong as black, after some fiddling about with Rybka, I for example managed to produce the following example:
8.Be2 Nc6 9. O-O Nf6 10. Re1 Be7 11. Bf1 Qd6 12. axb4 Nxb4 13. Ra4 Nc6 14. Ba3 Qc7 15. Bxe7 Nxe7 16. Na3 Bd7 17. Nb5 Bxb5 18. cxb5 O-O 19.Rc4 Qd7 20.Rxd4, which looks rather nice for white. In other lines, white (perhaps less favourably) regains the a7 pawn.
PatzerNoster wrote on 06/14/10 at 01:53:07:
I looked at the Wing Gambit again and I think that I identified a critical line:

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cb4: 3.a3 ba3: 4.d4 d6 5.Bd3 Nf6 6.Ne2 g6 7.0-0 Bg7 8.Na3: 0-0 9.c3 Nc6 10.f4 a6 (the position might be reached through many moveorders, white can capture the pawn at any point).

PatzerNoster wrote on 06/14/10 at 01:53:07:
What do you think about the position?

It at least looks murky enough to be playable for white in a practical game. Black does not have any really easy ways to challenge the white center and seems to be a bit passive (ideas with d6+e5 without g7-g6 seem to fight for the centre a bit more). E.g. in similar Pirc positions c7-c5 would be crucial (and the center would not be bolstered by a pawn on c3, because a knight would be there). On the other hand, black has no weakness and an extra pawn.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #19 - 06/14/10 at 01:53:07
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I looked at the Wing Gambit again and I think that I identified a critical line:

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cb4: 3.a3 ba3: 4.d4 d6 5.Bd3 Nf6 6.Ne2 g6 7.0-0 Bg7 8.Na3: 0-0 9.c3 Nc6 10.f4 a6 (the position might be reached through many moveorders, white can capture the pawn at any point).

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Black plans to undermine the white centre with b5-b4 or to put the bishop on b7, rook on c8 and bring a knight to c4 via a5. He has to watch out though, as a direct b5 hangs the pawn.

Now the question in the position above is what white should do and why he should have compensation for the pawn. White has better control over the centre, although that alone is seldom enough to claim compensation, as black can strike back at some point with either e5 or d5.
The guru of the wing gambit IM Zajarnyi had the position twice, once he played 11.e5 Nd5 12.Qb3 and played on the queenside, the next time he played 11.f5 and Qe1 to play on the kingside.

What do you think about the position?
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #18 - 04/01/10 at 15:31:10
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Will look at your suggestion more closely, Stefan. I presume the Bishop is tucked back to -f1 before you play d4 ?
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #17 - 04/01/10 at 10:12:35
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In line two, 6. b5 e5 was given by Gligoric/Sokolov in their book on the Sicilian Defense, Zagreb 1963, without expressing a preference for either side.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #16 - 04/01/10 at 08:57:08
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The 2 lines that according to my experience give white the most problems are:

1.Taking the pawn on a3 followed by a setup of d6 Nf6 e5 Nbd7 Qc7 Be7 b6 a6 and simply holding the line on e5 where white should simply play normal moves like he isn't a pawn down.

2. Like mentioned by Dimis 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.axb4(best) Nxd5 is interesting especially because the sometimes recommended gambit line 6.d4 fails on e5!. but after the logical 6. b5 followed by development ex 6...e5 7.Bc4 we have an unexplored and interesting position with chances for both sides.

  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #15 - 04/01/10 at 02:35:42
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8. Bd3 followed by 0-0, Re1 "and so on", heading for a quick d2-d4 to open the position. Not a pleasant line for Black to play, according to the database White has scored 64% in 59 games. Much worse, if you only look at games by IM Zajarnyi, an expert of the line. The detailed analysis by Michiel Wind in Kaissiber #29 shows that White gets fine attacking chances.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #14 - 03/31/10 at 22:52:59
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Could you supply some lines, in particular following 7. c4 Qe6 ?
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #13 - 03/31/10 at 21:37:28
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Uberdecker wrote on 03/31/10 at 19:52:53:
I was thinking more of 3. ...d5 ; 4. ed Qxd5 ; 5. Ktf3 e5

OK, thanks, the mainline. However, 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 e5 6.Bb2 Nc6 7.c4 and 6.c4!? seem to be in good shape according to analysis in Kaissiber 29.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #12 - 03/31/10 at 19:52:53
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I was thinking more of 3. ...d5 ; 4. ed Qxd5 ; 5. Ktf3 e5
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #11 - 03/31/10 at 19:25:57
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Uberdecker wrote on 03/31/10 at 18:43:38:
I don't see 3. ...d5 analyzed there. From what i can tell, it more or less refutes 3. Ktf3.
White should try 3. a3 or 3. d4 although these too are almost certainly insufficient for equality.

I agree about 3.Nf3 and 3.d4, but why do you think 3.a3 is insufficient for equality? Perhaps 3...bxa3 as PatzerNoster noted?
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #10 - 03/31/10 at 18:43:38
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I don't see 3. ...d5 analyzed there. From what i can tell, it more or less refutes 3. Ktf3.
White should try 3. a3 or 3. d4 although these too are almost certainly insufficient for equality.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #9 - 03/31/10 at 12:54:04
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[quote author=5A6D6A7D6B6A646A7D0F0 link=1270008666/8#8 date=1270038651]In the first game you gave, after 1. e4 c5 ; 2. b4 cb ; 3. Ktf3, why did you not play 3... d5, intending 4. ed Ktf6 or 4.e5 Bg4 ? Black is much better in these lines.[/quote]
FYI, there is discussion of this game in the Rybka forum:
[url]http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=14708[/url]
Shahar Tzafrir considers 3...d5, 3...d6 and 3...e6 to be stronger than 3...Nf6 as played.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #8 - 03/31/10 at 12:30:51
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In the first game you gave, after 1. e4 c5 ; 2. b4 cb ; 3. Ktf3, why did you not play 3... d5, intending 4. ed Ktf6 or 4.e5 Bg4 ? Black is much better in these lines.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #7 - 03/31/10 at 11:18:15
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An NM and trainer told the variation with 4.Nf6 and N:d5 for black as better.
Is that good?
Antigoon wrote on 03/31/10 at 07:04:43:
Nice game, it's good to see some wing gambit games as I believe it still to be an underestimated variation(about as much as the Morra is overestimated). where new ideas can be found 

I do not use it as my main line but use it as surprise with good results like in the following game:

[White "Docx Stefan"]
[Black "Van Beers Eddy"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bb2 Nc6 7.Bd3 Nf6 8.O-O
Be7 9.Re1 O-O 10.Ne5 Nxe5 11.Rxe5 Qd8 12.axb4 Bxb4 13.Ra4 Be7 14.Qf3 g6
15.Rh4 Nd7 16.Rxh7 Bf6 17.Rxe6 Bxb2 18.Rxg6+ fxg6 19.Qd5+ Kxh7 20.Qh5+
Kg8 21.Qxg6+ Bg7 22.Bc4+ Rf7 23.Qxf7+ Kh7 24.Bd3+ Kh8 25.Qh5+ Bh6 26.Qxh6+
Kg8 27.Bc4#   *

Namaste, Stefan. 

  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #6 - 03/31/10 at 09:58:10
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In my view the toughest nut to crack is 3. ... ba3:.
If there was something promising for white here, I would consider playing the Wing Gambit in serious tournament games. The other variations in my view already offer enough (even if only practical) chances.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #5 - 03/31/10 at 09:54:58
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Thanks! This 5...e6 comes in a later issue, thus we have time to crack all the tough nuts.  

Quote:
* MNb says: That Sjerbakov game is nice indeed, but does not prove yet, that White has enough. There is 19...Kh6 to refute and 12...Qd6 13.Ne4 Qc7 looks safer. (reply 4)
* I recently proposed a transposition to the game Tartakower-Luckis, 1938 with 6.d4. (reply 21)

Yes, there are some earlier improvements in this sequence, both for Black and White. I like 6.d4, and 6.axb4 Bxb4 7.Na3 is also excellent.

Regarding 19...Kh6 - White has fine chances, for most gambiteers "comp." signs are not their biggest fear.  
Regarding 12...Qd6 13.Ne4 Qc7 - this loses after 14.Nxf6+ Bxf6 15.Bxh7+. - Or 13...Nxe4(!) 14.Bxe4 Bc6 15.Nxc6 Nxc6 16. Ra3 +=. 
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #4 - 03/31/10 at 09:13:55
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/31/10 at 07:56:39:
A splendid game, congratulations! The move 10...Nxe5?! gives the white pieces the time and space for a brutal attack. Your execution is impressive. 

Sherbakov - Das, Pune 2004, went instead 10...Bd7 11.axb4 Nxb4 12.Nc3 Qd4 13.Be4 Qb6 14.Nxd7 Nxd7 and now the classical double sacrifice 15.Bxh7+ Kxh7 16.Qh5+ Kg8 17.Na4 Qd6 18.Bxg7 Kxg7 19.Qg4+ Kf6?? 20. Nc3 +-. The game is one of the center pieces in Nigel Davies' chapter on the Wing Gambit in his Gambiteer I book. 

But does anyone see a win, if Black plays 19...Kh6, e.g. 20.Ra3 Bg5 21.Rh3+ Kg6 22.Qh5+ Kf6? 

Edit: Davies writes in Gambiteer I (2007): "19...Kh6 would have been a much tougher nut to crack, for example 20.Ra3 Bg5 21.Rh3+ Kg6 22.f4 Qxf4 23.Qh5+ Kg7 24.Qh7+ Kf6 25.Rf1 wins Black's queen but the situation is still far from clear." - I'd prefer 22.Qh5+ Kf6 23.Nc3, when White has a lasting attack, enough to compensate for the piece. But it would be better to have a forced win.

Regarding 1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 e6, there are 2 other threads of interest:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1168001920
* MNb says: That Sjerbakov game is nice indeed, but does not prove yet, that White has enough. There is 19...Kh6 to refute and 12...Qd6 13.Ne4 Qc7 looks safer. (reply 4)
* I recently proposed a transposition to the game Tartakower-Luckis, 1938 with 6.d4. (reply 21)

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1220086995
dragonmaster has some comments on 10...Nxe5 (reply 2)
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #3 - 03/31/10 at 07:56:39
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A splendid game, congratulations! The move 10...Nxe5?! gives the white pieces the time and space for a brutal attack. Your execution is impressive. 

Sherbakov - Das, Pune 2004, went instead 10...Bd7 11.axb4 Nxb4 12.Nc3 Qd4 13.Be4 Qb6 14.Nxd7 Nxd7 and now the classical double sacrifice 15.Bxh7+ Kxh7 16.Qh5+ Kg8 17.Na4 Qd6 18.Bxg7 Kxg7 19.Qg4+ Kf6?? 20. Nc3 +-. The game is one of the center pieces in Nigel Davies' chapter on the Wing Gambit in his Gambiteer I book. 

But does anyone see a win, if Black plays 19...Kh6, e.g. 20.Ra3 Bg5 21.Rh3+ Kg6 22.Qh5+ Kf6? 

Edit: Davies writes in Gambiteer I (2007): "19...Kh6 would have been a much tougher nut to crack, for example 20.Ra3 Bg5 21.Rh3+ Kg6 22.f4 Qxf4 23.Qh5+ Kg7 24.Qh7+ Kf6 25.Rf1 wins Black's queen but the situation is still far from clear." - I'd prefer 22.Qh5+ Kf6 23.Nc3, when White has a lasting attack, enough to compensate for the piece. But it would be better to have a forced win.
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #2 - 03/31/10 at 07:04:43
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Nice game, it's good to see some wing gambit games as I believe it still to be an underestimated variation(about as much as the Morra is overestimated). where new ideas can be found 

I do not use it as my main line but use it as surprise with good results like in the following game:

[White "Docx Stefan"]
[Black "Van Beers Eddy"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.e4 c5 2.b4 cxb4 3.a3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bb2 Nc6 7.Bd3 Nf6 8.O-O
Be7 9.Re1 O-O 10.Ne5 Nxe5 11.Rxe5 Qd8 12.axb4 Bxb4 13.Ra4 Be7 14.Qf3 g6
15.Rh4 Nd7 16.Rxh7 Bf6 17.Rxe6 Bxb2 18.Rxg6+ fxg6 19.Qd5+ Kxh7 20.Qh5+
Kg8 21.Qxg6+ Bg7 22.Bc4+ Rf7 23.Qxf7+ Kh7 24.Bd3+ Kh8 25.Qh5+ Bh6 26.Qxh6+
Kg8 27.Bc4#   *

Namaste, Stefan. 
  
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Re: Sicilian Wings Gambit
Reply #1 - 03/31/10 at 05:31:04
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By coincidence, this game plays a prominent role in the article which will appear in Kaissiber #37. With Shahar Tzafrir's kind permission we were able to use his comments. It is a very nice game indeed.
  
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Sicilian Wings Gambit
03/31/10 at 04:11:06
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This Game Was Played in our Rybka Forum match vs a Correspondence/freestyle Player Shahar Tzafrir . We were allowed to use what ever we can and he beat us in mere 23 moves. We had 2 IMs OTB and to IMs Correspondence and 1 freestyle player who is 2200+ rating in OTB (Eros Ricco) and still we lost . I think wings gambit still has bite despite what others think. He gave his Analysis. 
Note to Buecker - His analysis has been taken by michael wind for 3rd edition of Wings Gambit in  kassiber


[Event "24 hours per move"]
[Site "Rybka forum"]
[Date "2009.11.04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Tzafrir, Shahar"]
[Black "Rybka Warriors, Forum"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B20"]
[PlyCount "135"]
[EventDate "2009.11.04"]
[EventType "corr"]

1. e4 c5 2. b4 cxb4 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e5 Nd5 5. a3 e6 6. axb4 Bxb4 7. Na3 Nc6 8. c4
Nde7 9. Nc2 O-O 10. Nxb4 Nxb4 11. Ba3 Nec6 12. Qb1 a5 13. Bd3 f5 14. Be2 d5 15.
exd6 Qxd6 16. d4 Bd7 17. Qb2 Be8 18. O-O Bh5 19. Rfd1 Rae8 20. Rd2 b6 21. Rad1
Re7 22. h3 h6 23. Qb3 Rc8 24. Bb2 Nd8 25. g4 fxg4 26. Ne5 Be8 27. d5 exd5 28.
Bxg4 Ndc6 29. Bxc8 Nxe5 30. Bxe5 Rxe5 31. cxd5 Bf7 32. Be6 Bxe6 33. dxe6 Qxe6
34. Rd8+ Kh7 35. Qxe6 Rxe6 36. R8d6 Re4 37. Rxb6 a4 38. Ra1 Nd5 39. Rb7 h5 40.
Kg2 Rd4 41. Ra7 Nc3 42. Rc1 Nd5 43. Rc6 Nf4+ 44. Kg3 a3 45. Rcc7 Ne6 46. Re7
Rd6 47. Rxa3 Kh6 48. Rea7 Nc5 49. f3 Rg6+ 50. Kf2 Rd6 51. h4 Nd3+ 52. Kg2 Rg6+
53. Kh2 Nc5 54. Rc3 Ne6 55. Ra5 Nf4 56. Rf5 Ne2 57. Rcc5 Ra6 58. Rxh5+ Kg6 59.
Rhg5+ Kh6 60. Rc8 g6 61. Rgc5 Ra4 62. Rc4 Ra3 63. R4c7 g5 64. Rc6+ Kg7 65.
R8c7+ Kf8 66. Rf6+ Kg8 67. Re6 Kf8 68. Rxe2 1-0



  
HEM_vs_Rybka_Warriors.pgn ( 14 KB | Downloads )
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